Speak Honest Podcast: Real Talk on Relationships, Attachment Styles & the Work of Healing Childhood Trauma
Are you ready to heal your attachment style, master healthy communication, and create secure, fulfilling relationships? Subscribe now to uncover the secrets of secure attachment, navigate the challenges of trauma recovery, and improve your communication skills in love and life. In each episode of the Speak Honest podcast, we’ll dive into attachment styles, emotional healing, and proven strategies for deeper connection. It’s time to break free from the cycle of heartbreak and start building the relationships you deserve.
Speak Honest Podcast: Real Talk on Relationships, Attachment Styles & the Work of Healing Childhood Trauma
82. The Body Speaks: Healing Chronic Pain Through Emotional Release | My Conversation with Nyle Biondi
Have you ever wondered if your chronic pain could actually be your body trying to tell you something?
In this episode, I sit down with licensed therapist Nyle Biondi to explore the powerful connection between trauma, attachment wounds, and chronic pain. We talk about how the nervous system stores stress, why pain isn’t always “just physical,” and what emotional release has to do with finding real relief. Along the way, I share my own struggles with chronic back pain and how these insights hit home for me in a big way.
You might want to listen if:
- You’ve been struggling with chronic pain that doctors can’t explain
- You feel dismissed or blamed when seeking help for your symptoms
- You’ve done trauma work but still carry pain in your body
- You wonder why your body “shuts down” during stress or big emotions
- You’re curious about how attachment healing can bring more ease, safety, and resilience
About Our Guest:
Nyle specializes in mind-body healing for chronic pain and trauma. With a deep commitment to the trans and queer communities, he helps clients break free from the physical and emotional toll of oppression, stress, and past wounds. His work integrates neuroplasticity, attachment healing, and nervous system regulation to support lasting transformation.
https://www.healingwithinpsychotherapy.com
https://queerresilience.substack.com
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DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest. I am your host and certified relationship coach, jennifer Noble. It has been my passion for over a decade to help women like you heal what's been holding you back from having the relationships you deserve. Are you struggling with a relationship where you can't seem to voice your emotions, needs and boundaries without having it blow up in your face? Then you have found the right podcast, my friend. Get ready for practical tips, empowering truths and honest conversations. Now let's dive in.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Speak Honest. I have a special guest and I'm so excited to get started. But first and foremost, if you are new here, welcome. I am Jen Noble, I am your go-to relationship coach and here at Speak Honest we talk about the hard subjects. So I have on today with me Niall Bondy. Now I will get going on. What Niall is gonna be talking to us about. But if while you're listening to our conversation, which us about, but if while you're listening to our conversation, which is all going to be about trauma, attachment, wounds, chronic pain, how we can heal those, if this is something that you are interested in and you have been wanting to heal for yourself, then I highly recommend you continue the conversation with us over in our free Facebook community. You just go right on Facebook type in Speak Honest it has these cute little orange hearts next to it, so you know it's ours. Or you can scroll on down to the show notes and click on the link and join us there. But while we are getting started, I want to tell you about Niall.
Speaker 1:Niall is a licensed therapist who specializes in trauma, attachment wounds and chronic pain, especially in the LGBTQ community. With a deep passion for mind-body healing, niall helps his clients break free from the emotional and physical toll of past wounds, stress and systemic oppression. His work blends neuroplasticity my favorite thing attachment theory and nervous system regulation to support true, lasting transformation. You can see why I want him on this show, guys. This is everything that I talk about all the time. This is not just symptom relief.
Speaker 1:Whether he's helping someone untangle the roots of chronic pain or he's guiding queer couples through the early stages of connection, nile's approach is deeply compassionate, research-informed and rooted in resilience. He's also the voice which I think is important behind the Queer Resilience newsletter on Substack which I was actually able to write a small piece for, where he shares insights, tools and real talk for healing in a world that doesn't always make it easy, isn't that the truth? And if you do want to learn more about Niall, we will drop some links in the show notes. But you can go to healingwithinpsychotherapycom or you can go read his blog over at queerresiliencesubsectcom. With all of that said, niall, go ahead and say hi, introduce yourself, share anything I didn't just share there.
Speaker 2:Hello, you covered a lot. Thank you for that warm welcoming intro. I'm just excited to be here to talk about chronic pain, attachment, healing, all of that stuff you know, as we were just talking about. I'd love talking about the chronic pain world because a lot of people just don't have the right information about what causes chronic pain and the ways out of it. So I love to just be able to share that a little bit, hopefully offer some hope to people.
Speaker 1:Tell me a little bit more about your background. When did you get started with chronic pain? Is this predominantly what you do now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got started with this work in 2019 as a result of my own chronic pain journey. I hadn't identified that I had chronic pain, because I had kind of a strange condition. I was diagnosed with something called burning mouth syndrome, but what that meant for me was that it felt like I had paper cuts on my tongue at all times. It was inflamed and painful and just strange Like the doctors were kind of just like yep, sorry, we don't know what to do for you, but I thought of chronic pain as like back pain or knee pain or fibromyalgia, those sorts of things, so I never related to being a person with chronic pain. But anyway, long story short, a friend of mine one day just said hey, I think you should check out this podcast called the Cure for Chronic Pain, and I did, and I started doing the work that she talked about in that podcast. Pain and I did, and I started doing the work that she talked about in that podcast.
Speaker 2:And it worked for me right away. I listened to that podcast yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And so then I went and got trained in something called pain reprocessing therapy, which really works with the neuroplasticity. The stuff that I got from the cure for chronic pain from Nicole Sachs is really emotions based work, really talking about how trauma and emotions get stuck in our body and how that can sometimes manifest as pain and symptoms. And then the pain reprocessing therapy is like really working with the brain in terms of trying to help your brain reframe something from pain to just a sensation and then over time it sort of turns down the volume on that sensation as you teach your brain I'm not actually in danger. It's not dangerous for me to be sitting in this chair right now, or it's not dangerous for me to go for a walk. Then your brain can learn how to turn the volume down on that signal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is so fascinating. Okay, so anyone that knows my story, I definitely have dealt with chronic pain. It is absolutely my identity Ever since I had my son 14 years ago. I threw my back out when he was only like a month old, hanging laundry, and I've quite literally never been the same since. I have had pain every day of my life. Since that moment, I have been in ERs. I've had surgeries, I've had steroid injections, I've been on medicine. No doctor tells me what's wrong with me. There's nothing on the MRI, nothing is going on. I just live with it. And I gained a whole bunch of weight. I got surgery to lose a whole bunch of weight. So finally they started taking me more seriously because, hi, I'm not just like a fat woman now.
Speaker 2:Hi, so common. Yeah, I'm so sorry, right.
Speaker 1:So common Like, oh, you just need to lose weight. You need to lose weight. It's like, yeah, no, shit, Sherlock, I've been trying and like nothing's working.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's not what's causing your pain.
Speaker 1:And, I'm sorry, also a good point, but they made you believe that? They did because they have no idea. And so all this stuff and it gets messed up in your head anyways. And so trying to figure out this back pain, degenerative disc disease, do I or do I not have fibromyalgia? This doctor says I do. This doctor says I don't. It's a mindfuck, honestly, niall. I hope that's okay. I say that, but can you speak on that a little bit at all? What is that like?
Speaker 2:I mean. First off, that's a classic story that I hear that there's nothing on my imaging. The doctors don't know. I nothing on my imaging, the doctors don't know.
Speaker 2:I've been in constant pain for years. No one can help me, and the reason for that is because you're trying to treat it through your body, but the problem is actually in your brain and your nervous system, and so as long as you're trying to treat your body, you're not getting to that root issue. So sometimes you'll even see people. I actually just had a friend who went through a pretty major surgery to fix some pain, and so people go through back surgeries a lot. But when the underlying issue is actually more of a mind-body connection, what happens is that the pain pops up somewhere else later. And so I have a friend going through this right now who just had one surgery and then now has pain somewhere else and is like what's going on? And so that's where I'm like okay, I know what's going on.
Speaker 2:Are you ready to kind of roll up your sleeves? I can steer you in the right direction at the very least. First I just want to say I'm sorry. I think it's such a common issue. The doctors don't know. They don't really believe me. I've maybe had to try to prove it to people, but nothing that they suggest works. So do you mind like doing a little experiment?
Speaker 1:I'd love it yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, are you in pain right now?
Speaker 1:Yes, because I'm sitting with my legs crossed, often because with one leg tucked up to try to help my back pain.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, okay so just a little bit.
Speaker 1:I'd say like a one or two. You can tell I talk to doctors a lot because I know my pain levels and numbers at all times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so not too bad, okay. So I want you to describe the pain to me using neutral terms.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is good. Pinching, throbbing, uncomfortable, I guess that's kind of not neutral.
Speaker 2:But that's okay pinching and throbbing mainly okay, and now I want you to just take a moment and just just be with those sensations. Close your eyes, if that's comfortable, and and take some deep breaths and just notice them. Just see if you notice any shifts, any changes. Just just be an observer to what's happening in your body.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, it's gotten worse.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, sometimes that happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, this is why I try to avoid it, but like, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:But. But from my perspective that's a good sign. I agree.
Speaker 1:Knowing what I know too about the work that I do, I totally agree. So this is great. I want to tell the listeners real quick. Can we pull back the curtain real quick, niall?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've been doing this work for quite a while too pain, somatic work. I worked with Gabor Mate and things like that with all of this. So I obviously have a bit of an understanding with what's going on. But I also want to get back into that old body sometimes that I have, where I feel that resistance and I feel that pain and I feel that frustration of that girl that used to just hate this. So now, you know, I could kind of be like oh yeah, it's there and it's probably telling me that I need to rest after this, you know, and I'm like no, no, stop it.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, so I want to go.
Speaker 1:I want to do this. Thank you for doing this exercise right now, so people can see this.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so I'm not going to do your own personal therapy session on air.
Speaker 1:Oh, come on, I want a personal therapy session, niall. I think we can. It's your podcast I mean, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:But why? This is a good sign to me, because nothing changed, right? You're still just sitting in the same chair. Nothing changed, other than you drew your attention to this part of your body and your brain went oh, you're in danger, like, turn on the volume.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be here. That's what's happening. I'm getting squirmy I want to go lay down. I want to put an ice pack on my back. I want to go for a walk because that helps loosen up. I didn't get a chance for a walk today because I had a client before you. So now my brain is also going a mile a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and your brain is fixating on like oh, if I just do this physical thing, that'll fix this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, keep going, that's good.
Speaker 2:But really you nailed it. It's like you're uncomfortable about going inward and being with what's there, and so your brain is like let me take you out of your internal emotional process. I like, let me take you out of your internal emotional process, I'm going to distract you with this physical pain. Why don't? It's this walk that you didn't take this morning that is causing this problem. If you could just get out of talking to this guy.
Speaker 1:you know, go take your walk. No, you're hitting me hard right now. Keep going. This is this is me. I often think I didn't do enough. I ate something bad last night, so now it's flaming me. You know, I had gluten.
Speaker 2:I ate some pasta last night. Yes, this is so classic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's still there in my brain as we're talking. This is so good. Yeah, this is going to be you know what? Guys Turn this podcast off today. Niall is.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to hire Niall for right now he's just going to talk you through this. Let's go.
Speaker 1:That is what goes on in my mind right there, and you caught it. You mirrored that back to me beautifully. Can you talk more about what's going on there for people?
Speaker 2:Most of us grew up fearing our emotions, right Like it wasn't safe for us to experience big emotions, and Gabor Mate talks about this beautifully. He's got just a really short YouTube video called Authenticity Versus Attachment where he talks about you know just, we're wired for attachment as young people and sometimes we have to sacrifice our own authenticity to maintain that attachment, and so sometimes that means hiding who we are, hiding big emotions, or if we're growing up in a chaotic environment, we might get the message from our parents we need you to just not make any waves, which causes us to repress, causes us to hide, and then those big emotions become very scary to us and so we avoid them at all costs. We become very busy, we take on a million activities, we numb out, we avoid, we distract just all of the ways that I could go off on Like. I think this is the problem in the whole world and society, and you know it really is problem in the whole world and society, and you know it really is.
Speaker 1:So something that's coming up for me right now, then, is I have been, I've been dealing with this for 14 years and in my you know healing work that for me this didn't come from chronic pain, it came from a broken heart and you know I I found how you and I know each other through the integrated attachment theory and I got certified in that and all you know it's like, oh my God, this is. This is why I'm attachment focused coach. Now I'm like, yeah, attachment styles You're also, you know, with attachment wounding and all that stuff. So I started healing and I started working through my emotions and I got a compassion inquiry you know practitioner through the Gabor Mate course that I went through and I I went through some deep healing and I've been through other types of modalities of healing this and I know how to meditate now and I know again, you can hear me talking about doing. I hear it. I hear it as soon as it's coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I still have pain, it still runs my life, it still ruins my life. I just I want to be honest about this. It means I can't go and go on a walk. I can barely go to Disneyland without I have to get a scooter. I can't stand in line. Yeah, I have to get a disability pass or else I can't sit in my class. I last fall.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I missed out on two weeks of class.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Because I couldn't move, and this coming from somebody who thinks she knows her shit.
Speaker 2:So talk me through that I'm really glad you're bringing this up, because I think, like the people who are a little bit on board with the mind body idea are like, yeah, but I've done the trauma work and I still have pain. And the key thing here is that there's nobody's bridging the gap, for you have to really understand the mechanism of the pain and what your brain is doing in real time, because it's like your brain has developed these subtle strategies that it's been using for decades to try to keep you safe, and so you have to, like, just figure out oh, that's the way my brain is trying to keep me safe. That's a false signal that my brain is sending out, but you have to be aware of it to be able to work your way out of it. Just really getting into the specifics of you know for you, if are you in pain, like is it really constant or is it at certain times of the day?
Speaker 1:It gets worse for doing certain things. There's a constant low level, hum kind of at all times, mainly my lower back, but then, like, like right now, I'm having a neck problem. This is why, like, I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia because, like you said, it'll jump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it bounces, yeah. So sometimes when I have people do what we were doing before, it's called somatic tracking, where you're just tuning into the sensations and trying to reframe it. And the reason I had you use neutral terms is just because when we say things like, oh, it's excruciating, it's the worst pain ever, you're like solidifying to your brain this is terrifying, this is awful, get me out of it. And then your brain is like, oh, you're in danger, I'm going to send out a louder danger signal and you like stumbled for like a hot minute of like what is a neutral term to describe this?
Speaker 1:which really showcased to me some of the work I still need to be doing around this of like, oh, I haven't actually done a neutral term in a while, but what a beautiful way to say that.
Speaker 2:Right. So a lot of the work I do with people is teaching them how to recognize when they're in a fear cycle and then how to get out of it. So like if you have the thought every time you stand up of like, oh, this is going to make my pain worse, you know, just starting to go like, okay, sometimes my pain increases when I stand up, but I know that it's safe for me to stand up and that's okay for me to do.
Speaker 1:So something just came up then for me right there. This is good Can?
Speaker 2:we just keep doing this Like I want to listen to my body, my somatic like okay, fine, more useful than me.
Speaker 1:This is like one of those unique situations where you get this like incredibly well-adapted like client in front of you, right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1:My body just pushed back against that. My stomach flopped and it said but I'm not safe.
Speaker 2:Yep, so talk me through that. Why isn't it safe for you to stand up?
Speaker 1:Because my back might go out.
Speaker 2:And what does that mean when your back goes out?
Speaker 1:It means like it's almost like a Charlie horse of my muscles and my lower back and then if it goes out, I'm, I'm fucked Like I can't move, I can't walk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how often does that happen for you just from standing up?
Speaker 1:In the last 14 years. It's probably like a predominant way in which my back goes out, like either bending down to get up or like getting up. There's like this intense pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm glad you're bringing this up, because sometimes we have to sort of work with different layers. Something like extreme muscle tightness is very much in the mind-body world, but something like somatic tracking isn't going to like loosen that up for you immediately, and so that's where we would get more into learning how to release repressed emotions. Journaling is kind of the top way to do that, and that's the stuff where, when I first encountered this work, I was like this sounds like bullshit, but I will do it anyway.
Speaker 1:I feel that deeply and sometimes it and here's the problem and actually we get this anywhere right, because even in like our attachment world, there's a lot of people that throw stupid shit out there. That's not real, like you know, like no, not all avoidance are villains that want to break your heart at all the time, you know. And and no, not all anxiously attached women are like these needy, clingy, crying whiners all the time. So in the chronic pain world, there are a lot of unfortunate rhetoric out there of just like oh well, your pain is just in your head and like away, and so if you're still having pain, then you just haven't worked through it. But can I tell you, to me it feels blame it's dismissive and blamey yeah thank you.
Speaker 1:So I think that's the thing that gets me stuck sometimes, as I'm like, but I have done the work and I know my clients have done the work well, yeah, it's, the work is just a little different.
Speaker 2:It's really hard for me to explain to you why, and it's like for whatever reason. When people get into this specific journaling process and just start to learn how to look at what's happening in their body with a different lens, then they start to go oh, I realized that, like at age seven, I internalized this about myself and I kept this emotion in, and you know, it's just I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's hard to describe. No, it is.
Speaker 2:But people just start to make these connections in a different way and so, like back to your back pain, like if you were my client, I would want to really get into, like, what was happening the year leading up to your son's birth and what was happening the year leading up to your son's birth and what was happening around that time that was so stressful to you.
Speaker 1:I have actually tracked it back because I've done some of those journaling processes and things like that, and that's the interesting part for me. It goes back to like my my family trauma, like specifically with my siblings, and specifically like let's get real Cause, why not Right? Like the sexual trauma that happened to me as a kid and so, um, and the trapped feeling of what that is, and so I think what was happening is when my back goes out. So this is what I've worked with with a practitioner. I was working with, um, but tell me what you think if this sounds up your alley. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:like if this is like okay, tracking, it's this weird way in which I trap myself. So I have a big wounding around, feeling trapped. I am trapped. It makes total sense. A lot of people with sexual trauma have that wounding. Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1:And what happens is in these moments leading up to, you know, giving birth, I think I was feeling I was, oh, I was a disaster. Niall, I've also been diagnosed with borderline, which I don't even know what you know, I don't care Like it's just emotional dysregulation. It's high. I was traumatized as a kid and I'm a woman, so that's what they're going to diagnose me as. But I was a disaster pregnant, all my hormones everywhere. I was postpartum depression like crazy for the first two years of my son's life and I just trapped myself. And so what happens is when my back goes out, I get attention, I get help and I get to rest, and so these started coming up. So it makes sense, like in the fall when I'm back at school and I had a lot going on I think I just signed my book publishing deal, right, like things were going really well with me my back went out for two weeks, but it's still fucking pisses me off because I have a lot to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, right, and so I mean you know, through some of the attachment work, like part of it is about teaching your system. I don't need to get my needs met in this way anymore, and it's actually not a good way for me to get my needs met Again. If we were working together, I think it would be a combination of, like the emotions based work, I promise you. I thought that I didn't need to do that work either, and as soon as I started doing it I was like, oh boy oh boy.
Speaker 2:I had repressed a lot Like you, just don't even know because it's repressed.
Speaker 1:Good point and we still need to keep doing it right.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, because also, like things have happened to you since you've done the trauma work, you know it's not like we just resolve our shit and then life is good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, it's not like my family never randomly reaches out to me or like I see something on Facebook that triggers me.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, right, all of those things. And it's really about learning how to discharge stress from your body in a different way. So it's not like if you work 60 hours a week, you have to work 30 hours a week. It's not that it's like learning how to get the stress of a 60 hour work week out of your body, like out of your psyche. Sometimes it's just like changing your thought patterns, like how you approach a situation. Sometimes it's like discharging the stress at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:If you had a shitty interaction with a coworker, like letting that energy out through the journaling so that next day when you have to show up at work you don't have that like dreading kind of feeling about that coworker. You've like let it out and it's done and you're ready to move on. So it's just like a lot of little strategies of like okay, I talk to people a lot about learning how to live your life just more from a place of ease. So when you talk about like the sort of obsession to fix the back pain that actually makes it worse because you're telling your nervous system like I can't live until we solve this problem, basically, like I can't be okay until this is solved, and your brain's like, oh, you're in danger, I know what to do, and so it's like you guys are just miscommunicating.
Speaker 2:So you know it's. It's like being able to go okay, I'm going to try this new strategy, even though I'm not sure that it's going to work, because what do I have to lose? But not like this has to work or else, or it's like getting out of that kind of energy.
Speaker 1:I love how wrapped around my brain gets in terms of all of this stuff that you're saying, because a part of my brain is also like yeah, but I'm such a yeah, I'm such a yeah, but yeah, but isn't the act of going and finding, say like a chronic pain specialist therapist, me trying to get rid of the back pain? So then am I not just perpetuating the cycle?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm going to give that a yes and right, like, because if, if, like that would maybe be the first step for you is just like okay, we're just going to try a new thing and we're going to see how it goes, rather than this life and death Like, this has to work or else. Or, if this doesn't work, then I'm going to try this and this and this and this, just going okay, I've been in back pain for 14 years, so a few more months is not going to kill me.
Speaker 1:I like to say this to my clients all the time Everything's an experiment in life. So like even now I can hear it right. It's like, like I said, these are my first initial reactions, just so anyone out there doesn't feel alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love it Again.
Speaker 1:it's more useful to people because the listeners would be like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, I always tell the girls in my programs bring me your yeah, but yeah, but yeah, I always tell the girls in my programs, bring me your yeah, but like when we're talking about reprogramming and like refiring like our neurons together, and they'll be like yeah, but and I'm like I love it, I need to talk about.
Speaker 2:It means we're engaged, right. You're not just people pleasing me, which is actually part of chronic pain. Most of us are perfectionists and people pleasers because we learn to be that way for people to like us or to stay safe. And it's this sense of like. If I'm not these things, then you won't like me or I'll get rejected or abandoned. And it's more fear, right. And so part of the deepest work is getting to a place where, like, you're really okay with you and you know that you've got your back, even if somebody thinks you're a weirdo or whatever. Or you know, like all the things that we worry about, that when we zoom out, we're like, actually, who cares if my colleagues think I'm wearing a weird outfit, it doesn't matter, you know it doesn't actually matter.
Speaker 1:I know and you like, when you get yourself into that like reality of it, it's like what's the worst thing that could actually happen. I love, I love future fearing and following it out to get them to really see like, okay, and then what will happen.
Speaker 2:And then what, and then what, and then what so?
Speaker 1:I keep going there. But let me ask you this, just to transition into more of the how, because I love what you're talking about and, genuinely speaking, even right now I'm thinking I need more work. I have more work to do. I have. I can tell I still have trauma and triggers around my family Like they still piss me off. I, you know I've gotten to a good place where I can kind of be around them.
Speaker 1:But there are still times where I'll cry Like and that's good. Don't get me wrong. I know that that doesn't mean I'm like never going to heal, but it means I can tell there's something still going on inside of me. I get vertigo, I get this neck pain, I get this lower back pain. All of these ideas are going on. I'm thinking, okay, that's my body telling me something's up. Also, I do just, you know, agree that like this could be there forever and that's okay, it's just going to be my constant.
Speaker 2:All of those symptoms are fit into the mind body world, but but again. So instead of like what's wrong with my body, I would encourage you to just think about what is my body telling me. What is my body telling me? Why does my body think I'm unsafe right now, you know, because vertigo same thing. It's like your body's like you better lay down, you better get back in bed. But why? Why does your body think that you shouldn't leave the house during those times?
Speaker 1:Just like on a side tangent vertigo was the worst thing and it happened to me. This is also just like a side thing and I think I hear this a lot with clients. It happens when they start joining my program Out of nowhere. Their life blows up. So I started yoga and when I was doing yoga I got a vertigo attack and I threw up in the yoga studio. Sorry, this is not funny, no it is ridiculous, I know, and all I could think about is like humiliating I mean I'm embarrassed, I'm humiliated.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to better my life. Like this happens a lot, you know, and I'm like, and I get in this like mindset and I'm like, oh fuck it. Like I'm supposed to be bettering my life and now you won't even let me. And I see this happen. There was like there was a client recently just signed up for my program. It's the relationship reboot program. It's so beautiful. She just came in and out of nowhere, her car breaks down, Her mom gets sick and her dog needs to go to the vet, are you kidding me right?
Speaker 2:now yeah, so you're not talking like there's a breakup. Suddenly I was like, well, that would make sense, but yeah, no, just weird stuff.
Speaker 1:No, it's like sometimes that happens in life and something I've worked through is like just realizing like okay, shit's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Well, right, and embodying more of that, Because even in that there's like this I was trying to get better. There's so much pressure and stress and anger in the.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to relax, I'm trying to do yoga here and be mindful, damn it.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and so it's like being able to go. Okay, I wanted to relax and this is what was thrown my way today and sucks, and that was a tough one for me.
Speaker 1:It took me out of like going to this concert where I'd spent a lot of money on it to meet Anthony Rapp, because rent is like my favorite thing in the whole wide world and so I was going to go get a chance to meet him. But I woke up that morning and I couldn't move, Like the whole world was spinning, and in those moments I'm like this isn't trying to tell me anything, it's just trying to attack me. Do you hear that Like? Do you hear my brain?
Speaker 2:thinking that.
Speaker 1:I know it's not true, but it's what I was feeling.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah Well, and it's your brain trying to keep you safe, but it's misguided, right. It's like your brain is like this is too much, too overwhelming, too exciting. I don't know Like what if you say something stupid in front of your idol, like I don't know what's going on for your brain. But your brain was like this is not safe, so I got to keep you home.
Speaker 1:I like what you said there. Can I stop down on that real quick? You said it's trying to keep you safe but it's misguided. That's really powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keep going. Sorry, that was just so good. Yeah, so it's like some of the strategy is like working with a scared little kid that is your nervous system where you're like, hey, buddy, I see what you're trying to do here, but this isn't what I need to stay safe, like it's. I really want to do this thing. It's okay for me to go out and meet this person. I've been looking forward to it for months, you know, trying to just like love that scared part of you, rather than like you are ruining everything again. You know.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, why did you just have to like traumatize me and be my mother there for like a hot minute? Nile G.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a weird kind of trauma bond Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that. But right there, what you just said, right, that's those voices in our head, those are the wounds that we hear, which is like, oh, you're just trying to ruin this again. You know why do you ruin everything, why are you so difficult? Like that's usually my kind of voices in my head and I can, as we're speaking, I can see that in that moment, with the vertigo, and I was again trying to do, I was trying to meditate, I was trying to like get rid of it, but I wasn't giving it compassion, with a vengeance too, though.
Speaker 1:I think about this with my son when I like ask him to do something. And now that you got me thinking about this and it's like I need him to like put his clothes away or do something. Like if I'm hounding him and I'm like, do it, do it. What are you doing? Do it now, what are you doing? And I'm just over top of him the whole time. I was like, well, you're just like, you're an idiot. Like nobody puts their laundry away.
Speaker 2:There's memes everywhere on the internet for it, whole support groups. Yeah, no, but you're right, I mean, that's actually what I was going to bring it to is like talk to yourself the way you talk to your kid or the way you've talked to him when he was little, especially. You know, I would never talk to my little nine-year-old the way I talk to myself, for a little face would just, you know, like no, it's learning how to pause. For me it's been a lot of just learning how to pause when I feel that tension in my body, when I have this like go, go, go, I have to get everything done, just going like hold on. I like to teach people to put their hand on their heart. You probably know it activates the same part of your brain that gets activated when you're being hugged, so it just has a soothing effect, see, listen everybody.
Speaker 1:This is why, every time, you guys are always like why don't I put my hand on my heart? This is why there's a connection.
Speaker 2:There is a connection, yeah, and so for me it's just like taking a moment and being like you're okay, buddy like you have a lot going on today.
Speaker 1:I like how you talk to yourself I do. I like how you say buddy, I say sweetheart it.
Speaker 2:It's like, it's cute, like yeah, but I say buddy to my son, which we could, we could. She was like splashing bath water all over the floor and I was like dude. And she was like don't call me dude. And I said why? I said okay, but why? I thought it was a gender thing. And she was like you only say that when you're mad adult and someone calls her dude, her whole body's going to shut down. It doesn't bother her anymore because her mom and I don't yell. But it was just like dude. Could you not do that? You're making a big mess. That's the extent of it.
Speaker 1:You only do that when you're mad at me, but to her that was loud.
Speaker 2:Anyway, talking to yourself kindly, the way you would to a little one.
Speaker 1:And hearing yourself. I love this. If we speak more on this as saying if our inner little child, if we try to speak kindly to it and it doesn't respond well to that and it says don't call me dude or don't call me buddy or don't call me sweetheart. Sweetheart sounds patronizing. Listen to that part, right Like if we could just all communicate as well as your daughter did in that moment, to be able to just unabashedly say don't call me that yeah and then, instead of getting angry at her, instead of being like it's not that big a deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like it's just a word stupid, like right, like whatever it is, honestly, but probably must have been said to some of us as a kid you listened to her, you respected her, you were compassionate with her and you're like thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what we could do to our inner child. If our inner child pushes back against anything, I call it my inner child. I'm not sure if you'd use a different term or whatnot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do that too yeah.
Speaker 1:Whatever it is inside of you, would it be? You know, we all say different things. It could be an attachment wound, it could be a voice, whatever, everyone has their thing. But being compassionate to listening to it, like really being able to hear what it's trying to tell you, is like I don't like that, like oh okay, what do you want?
Speaker 2:Right, and that's huge. With this type of work, you know, like the journaling process that I've referenced is really hard work, and sometimes people look at it and are like hell, no, I'm not doing this. And sometimes people sort of dive in too quickly and almost take on too much, and so it is listening to that voice Like if the voice says hell, no, then it's like okay, let's really look at this. Is this really too difficult, too scary, too much? Let's start with that fear. Just talk about the fear of journaling.
Speaker 1:What would you say to someone who can't trust their body so like this, this idea of like listening to your body? Because something just came up for me as we're talking and I'm thinking to myself you know I need to go for a walk after this, but my body is like no right. My body's like go back, take a nap, just go to bed. But if I listened to my body all the time, I would be eating ice cream and napping in my PJs and. I would have canceled this appointment with you. Do you know?
Speaker 1:what I mean, so like talk me through that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because chronic pain, chronic symptoms are your brain sending out a miscommunication, a danger signal, in error, and so something like fatigue. That can be tricky too, right Cause you're like I feel like I can't function if I haven't slept but something like chronic fatigue. One of the mind-body strategies is to help your brain like evaluate, you know, to kind of look at, like, look, I got nine hours of sleep last night. I actually I don't need to go back to sleep right now because fatigue is another danger signal.
Speaker 1:So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that part of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, danger signal.
Speaker 1:So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that part of you and get it to kind of see the react Cause yeah, I got nine hours last night, but I am I'm having a chronic fatigue week. Is something's happening to me right now, and when that happens I kind of want to just shut down.
Speaker 2:Right. And so it's like finding the balance there right, like it might be too much for your system for you to just suddenly go well, I'm not napping because I had nine hours, you know, like we don't want you to be a bully to yourself either, but it's like sort of gently coaching yourself, gently saying like yeah, you slept nine hours and you want to go back to bed because you just did this like emotional interview. That that was a lot, you know, it's like a lot of processing and so can I interrupt you for like a hot minute?
Speaker 1:Niall, I bet you my body knew we were going to be talking about this shit, and so it went I don't want to talk to him.
Speaker 2:I don't want to talk to him.
Speaker 1:He's going to make me heal. You just need to hibernate. Yeah, I am. I am just a such a shutter downer when big emotions are coming up. So you actually just helped me understand something about myself right there, where I was like why don't I want to do this? Like what's going on, nothing about you, and I love that you don't I want to do this. Like what's going on, nothing about you, and I love that you don't take that personal at all, like hopefully, but yeah, so that that's exactly it. Just kind of getting curious, right, I often say get curious, not furious. Like get curious with your body, with your thoughts. Why do you want to shut down? Why do you want to not do this? And I did. I was like even before this and I was getting ready and whatnot. I was like what's going on? And it's like I've done a lot. You know, I had a podcast earlier, I had a client, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:No, I hear you. I was feeling a little nervous before this.
Speaker 1:I was like this is I don't know, jen, this is like I've been on a few sort of mind body podcasts lately but I was like I don't know what this vibe will be like, what's she and so with that coming up and then, and just in general, our bodies can sometimes just be fatigued. It's got all the past stuff going on with it. The more we level up in our lives, the more the stuff is going to come up. So you bring up such good points there of just compassionately, curiously talking to it and what you said there was. You can have a conversation with you, with it, with yourself. It's not, we don't have to listen to it.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and something like fatigue. Again. I'm like I need my sleep. That's my number one basic need that has to be met. But it might be like on a day like this for you, you tell yourself I'm going to take a 20 minute nap, I don't need to sleep for three hours. But if you just know I'll feel recharged, I'll feel better if I do that, it's fine, Go ahead. You know like you don't have to punish yourself for that, but you probably don't need to sleep all afternoon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then the place I've gotten to lately is like a check. I love this because, as you said, just like have that conversation, like like go through your reality of like okay, well, I got all my sleep in, so I, you know I should be okay Not should in a bad way, but like same thing, like when I'm hungry but I've just eaten, I'm like, well, let me check in with myself, maybe something else is going on, maybe I need some water, maybe I have heartburn for me lately, because I'm getting old, heartburn feels like.
Speaker 2:I'm hungry. It's the weirdest thing, it's so weird, and so this is beautiful.
Speaker 1:This is so beautiful and, as we're wrapping up, I want all the women listening to just understand that if you have chronic pain first off, there's probably a high chance at least 95% of you do. You listen to me, you hear me talk, you have attachment wounds, which means you've had some trauma in your life, and that's where chronic pain comes from, right, niall?
Speaker 2:Like it just does. Yeah, I mean, it's basically just like chronic stress and or trauma stored in your body.
Speaker 1:We should talk about the two books that people should read if you have any others, but definitely uh, when the body says no, that is such a good book for people to start If they want to like learn more about this kind of concept. Also check out the chronic pain podcast, the cure for chronic pain Great, great podcast, and the body keeps the score.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Oh, great, although I will caveat that the body keeps the score is a heavy ass book. Great, although I will caveat that the body keeps the score is a heavy ass book. It's heavy. Yeah, he just, he just sorry, like just on a side tangent. He just just nonchalantly talks about like childhood abuse as if it's like the weather. Yeah, you can tell this is a man that's been in this like system for a while, because you just get. And I'm just listening like on my walk as I'm sobbing and I'm just like that's my caveat.
Speaker 2:So if you want's my caveat.
Speaker 1:So if you want a gentler one, I think that when the body says no is a great one.
Speaker 2:I think Gabor Mate is a genius. My only criticism that you will probably ever hear from me about him is that he doesn't really connect those dots. He tells us why we develop chronic pain and symptoms and I believe that he's right about those things but he doesn't give a lot of hope for getting out of it. So that's where when someone like you is like well, I've read this stuff, I've done this stuff, I don't think you've had somebody really connect the dots for you in terms of what actually is happening in your brain when these symptoms show up. So my guess would be that if you decide to kind of take a dive into this work, that it won't take you much to work your way out of it. It's like you've done a lot of the emotional processing and the trauma work. You just need someone to help you connect those dots and get out of those fear cycles.
Speaker 1:Tell me where to find someone. So talk to me. Let's say, actually, yeah, I'm absolutely going to go and find someone. I think that this is one of those things that you know was perfectly put into my life, Something I've been wanting to do anyway. So thank you, Niall, for coming on Hell. I can work with you if you take on clients right now, but talk to me about how to find someone. So then anyone listening also knows how.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the pain reprocessing therapy website, prt pain reprocessing therapy. They have a provider directory of people that have been trained so you can find providers you know in all 50 states and other countries as well. There are a couple other places. I can't remember this organization.
Speaker 1:If you want to send them to me later, I can put them in the show notes later, but that's why okay, I can start there, and then do you recommend just reaching out to people, like do you interview them, like stuff like that, like how do? How do clients normally find you?
Speaker 2:The PRT website, honestly, is where I get a lot of referrals and then just word of mouth.
Speaker 1:And then do they meet up. Is there like a normal thing to have like a 15 minute discovery call or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah, most people will do like a free 20 minute consult. Yeah and yes, that's huge. Like you got to feel comfortable. You have to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, one of my things that I do in our work with Integrated Attachment Theory is I pair up clients and coaches. Like this is a big thing that I love doing and I same with like clients, with therapists, and if they come to me but they need a therapist, I help them to interview people and go through it. Because those of us with trauma as well, it's hard for us to trust. It as well it's hard for us to trust, it's hard for us to ask those questions and we kind of just think like, oh, they're the expert, but it's like dating, you got to find the right one for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, you should be able to feel like you can give feedback and talk openly and say, oh, I don't like the way you said. You know like someone that you really feel comfortable with.
Speaker 1:Like the way I was talking to Niall today. Guys, find someone.
Speaker 2:He didn't get defensive.
Speaker 1:He never took it personal, he didn't get off the podcast, he wasn't like fuck you, I don't want to deal with this shit. I came on here as an expert. What are?
Speaker 2:you doing? You'd be like, all right, that guy has some more attachment, wounding to heal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and therapists and things are human. So find the person that works with you. Now, if someone wants to work with you specifically, they are listening and they just adore your voice. They want to like, they're like I feel safe with him the way he's handled Jen's feistiness because I'm also feisty, I'm also sassy Like he really handled her and they want to work with you. How can they find you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my website healingwithinpsychotherapycom. So just an important distinction between therapists and coaches.
Speaker 1:Very big.
Speaker 2:Therapists can only see clients who live in the states that they're licensed in. So for me that's Colorado and Wisconsin. But I also do actually have a separate coaching business because of the chronic pain work and the IAT work that I've done. Those are coaching models. So for me legally I just have to have two separate businesses.
Speaker 1:Oh great, so someone could reach out to you and still be coached, or you could be like a consultant for them or whatnot in terms of that, oh great to know that work wouldn't be reimbursable through insurance. Yeah, it's always the fun part yeah. Oh, but that's cool, you're in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2:I'm in Colorado. But you are licensed to also work in Wisconsin, okay, family in Wisconsin that. I know need you, so I'm going to go talk to them real quick after this.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was amazing. I think this was more for me than for anyone else. So again, anyone, thank you for coming along. I often say I'm honored to be a part of your healing journey. But like, can I just say I'm honored right now that I think all of you just came on my healing journey, so this was so powerful. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we pop off here?
Speaker 2:No, just to you. Just I appreciate your vulnerability and your openness and your willingness to dive in and just say wait, this part sounds like bullshit.
Speaker 1:Tell me about this. Yes, that is Wait. Bullshit is kind of my jam, so, yes, well, thank you, niall, for holding space for all of this today, and I hope to have you back sometime.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it was fun.
Speaker 1:As we wrap up today's conversation, always remember that healing is a journey, not a destination, and it is an honor to be a part of your healing journey. If you want to dig deeper into the topics we covered today, be sure to head over to our show notes, where you can find all of the valuable information mentioned in today's episode right there, and please remember to rate, review and subscribe if you enjoyed today's podcast. Your feedback means the world to us and helps others discover our podcast. Until next time, remember to speak up and speak honest.
