Speak Honest Podcast: Real Talk on Relationships, Attachment Styles & the Work of Healing Childhood Trauma

79. What to Do When Someone in Your Life Feels Beyond Difficult | My Conversation with Dr. Jessie Stern & Rachel Samson

• Jennifer Noble, ACC | Certified Relationship, Dating, NLP, & IAT Coach

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Ever feel like no matter how calm you stay, certain people still push every button you have?
In this episode, I’m joined by the brilliant co-authors of Beyond Difficult, Dr. Jessie Stern and Rachel Samson. Together, we unpack why some people feel so hard to deal with and what’s actually going on under the surface of their behavior. From the science of attachment and temperament to the misunderstood truth about highly sensitive people, we explore practical ways to stay regulated, set boundaries, and communicate without losing your mind (or your compassion). Whether it’s your partner, a parent, or that one coworker... this episode will help you navigate difficult dynamics without making yourself the villain or the victim.

You might want to listen if:

  • You feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in relationships
  • You’ve been told you’re “too sensitive” (or wondered if it’s true)
  • You struggle to stay calm around certain people, no matter how hard you try
  • You want to stop personalizing difficult behavior but still hold boundaries
  • You’re craving research-backed tools for managing conflict with more compassion

About Our Guests:

Dr. Jessie Stern

  • Website: drjessiestern.com
  • Instagram: @drjessiestern
  • X (Twitter): @jessAstern

Rachel Samson

  • Website: www.rachelsamson.co 
  • Instagram: @australianpsychologist

Buy The Book BEYOND DIFFICULT 


FIND OUT MORE!


DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to Speak Honest. I am your host and certified relationship coach, jennifer Noble. It has been my passion for over a decade to help women like you heal what's been holding you back from having the relationships you deserve. Are you struggling with a relationship where you can't seem to voice your emotions, needs and boundaries without having it blow up in your face? Then you have found the right podcast, my friend. Get ready for practical tips, empowering truths and honest conversations. Now let's dive in.

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Speak Honest. I am Jen Noble, your go-to relationship coach, and on today's episode I am so excited I am going to be joined by two brilliant minds behind one of my new favorite books called Beyond Difficult, an attachment-based guide to dealing with challenging people. And, as you can tell probably by the title and if you know me by now, you can imagine why I love this book already. We've got attachment, we've got conflict. These are pretty much my two favorite things in the whole world and I wanted to be able to read this. I'm so excited to have them both on. I want more of this.

Speaker 1:

This book was written by the wonderful Dr Jesse Stern and Rachel Sampson and I cannot wait to dive into this with both of these amazing women and really get to the heart of how to deal with difficult people. And now I know right now, all of us know at least one or two difficult people in our lives. If you're listening right now, I bet you someone just popped up in your mind when you heard that idea, so keep them in mind while you're listening to our conversation. Now, jessie and Rachel, welcome to the show. How are you both doing today?

Speaker 2:

Great Thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you're so welcome. I'm so happy you're here. Why don't you guys share a little bit with our listeners, a little bit about yourself, the work you do and what led you to co-write Beyond Difficult?

Speaker 3:

Let's start with Jessie, Thanks so much for having us, jen. I'm Jessie Stern, I'm an assistant professor of psychological science at Pomona College and I'm an attachment researcher. So that's been my bread and butter for the past 10 years and I really enjoy interviewing parents and kids about their experiences. But I also do a lot of work on adult attachment as well, and I met Rachel actually at an attachment training in Minnesota which we can talk about more and we hit it off immediately and stayed friends ever since then. So that was kind of the beginnings of a friendship that then turned into a co-authorship. So I kind of brought the research science-y nerd lens to the book and Rachel brought the clinical practical experience, which I'll let her say more about.

Speaker 1:

That sounds fantastic and so much fun. Now, yes, please, Rachel, share a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2:

So I'm Rachel Sampson. I'm an Australian-based clinical psychologist and I work from an attachment lens with couples, parents and kids and individuals, using an approach called schema therapy, which is looking at people's childhood experiences and how that's shaped the people that they become, and I'm also really fascinated in the intersection of temperament and attachment and how that shapes our personality and the people that we ultimately become.

Speaker 1:

This is so great. I think everyone right now is understanding why I have both of you on here, because this is my bread and butter. This is what I love doing. Now, one of the things that I really loved about your book Beyond Difficult, great, great term as well. Talk to me a little bit where that title came from and what were you really thinking about as you were writing this book?

Speaker 3:

I think the title to me has two meanings.

Speaker 3:

The first is when you know somebody who you think is beyond difficult in your life and I think most of us have had at least one relationship that fits the bill it doesn't necessarily have to be that the person is hugely difficult themselves, but it could just be the nature of the interaction that you happen to have with them.

Speaker 3:

So there are people who I consider to be extremely difficult in my own life that my partner has no problem with, and vice versa. So there's a bit of an interaction between what we're bringing to a relationship and what the other person brings. But the second meaning of the title, which hopefully readers will discover when they get into the book, is it's usually not the case that somebody is intentionally trying to make our life difficult, right? Usually there is something going on beyond what's there on the surface, and if we can dig into that a little bit, have a greater understanding of what's going on underneath that surface, we can do a better job of addressing underlying issues. So going beyond difficult also means not just labeling this person as being a terrible person, but understanding where the behavior is coming from and addressing what's at the root of it.

Speaker 1:

I love that you brought this up, because, as I was reading your book, one of the things that I really noticed was it didn't feel blamey that's a very science word right Blamey. As I was reading it, and this is something I really try to teach my clients as well, which is we're not healing our relationships by making him the bad guy, right, we're not doing this kind of work over here, and so yours felt really different. So can you talk to me about your decision to focus on compassion and science over labels, rachel?

Speaker 2:

I think it's because it's what works right.

Speaker 2:

Like you said, you know you're not going to heal your relationship by blaming the other person, and in my work clinically, I find that so much transformation can come just from people understanding what's underneath someone's behavior.

Speaker 2:

And so, as I said, I do a lot of work with parents around difficulties with their children, and it's the same principle whether it's working with parents or whether it's working with couples or adults trying to understand their parents and the way that they were when they were growing up.

Speaker 2:

Understanding what's going on underneath the behavior is incredibly helpful because if we've been interpreting it as something about us or that it's personal that the person is just treating us that way and sometimes that is the case, you know, there are times where someone will be very charming with everybody except, for example, a partner. But generally speaking, the way that someone behaves is telling us something about what's going on for them, whether it's their personality or whether it's feeling threatened in a situation or some unmet need they have, and so just changing that lens can change the meaning that someone is making of another person's behavior, and that in itself can bring relief. So that's part of why that's so important for us to look at that in the book, and then on top of that there are skills and strategies that we might learn to then navigate that relationship. But that understanding and compassion piece is so important.

Speaker 1:

Such a good point. You bring up in the book that difficult behavior is communication. Right, it's a way to communicate to someone. This difficult behavior. It's not your character. Can you speak more on that?

Speaker 3:

I think it's easiest to think about this with a little kid, right? No little child wants to throw a tantrum. No kid gets pleasure out of behaving badly. There's usually an unmet need that they're trying to communicate and they have limited ability to do so. And I think a lot of adult difficult behavior is kind of like an adult version of a two-year-old's tantrum. It's communicating an unmet need or a feeling of threat or some emotion that's not able to be expressed in a mature way and so it's being acted out in ways that annoy the heck out of us.

Speaker 3:

But ultimately is still communication. And if we can read between the lines of what is this behavior communicating? As Rachel said, it's often not personal, it's not about us. It's communicating something about that person, their emotional state. And what's often not personal, it's not about us. It's communicating something about that person, their emotional state and what's going on psychologically. Oftentimes there's more to a difficult situation than meets the eye. So a person could be going through a loss or a difficult home environment and then bringing that to work with them or bringing that into a romantic partnership.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's not always an explicit or intentional act of communication. You know, when we say behavior is always communication, it's not like the person is indirectly trying to send a message all the time, but we can translate that into communication. So it might be that someone, whether it's a child or an adult throwing a tantrum, is feeling angry or feeling unheard. So we could translate their behavior to I'm feeling scared or I'm feeling angry or I'm feeling unheard. So I think that's important. Just to note that it's not always an indirect way of trying to communicate something. It's that it's telling us something about what's going on for the person and so in that way, it's communication.

Speaker 1:

I love that it's trying to tell us something which, as I was hearing the both of you talk, I was thinking of like the toddler throwing a temper tantrum and I have definitely had my own temper tantrums in my day. If not, you know, probably maybe I'll have one this weekend. We'll see what happens and what a beautiful way to have self-compassion for yourself as well is to realize you are trying to communicate something to someone else as well. If you blow up, if you start crying because your husband comes home and he doesn't kiss you and he goes straight to his office and all of a sudden it makes your stomach drop and it starts to make you cry, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It just means your body's trying to communicate something.

Speaker 1:

Which brings me to kind of our next point, which in my world, like in my pre-world, as I say, I thought of myself as just this way too sensitive of a person. Like every tiny thing, like everyone's eyes, looked at me slightly different, that hypervigilance that comes, you know, with a disorganized attachment. But something that I noticed in your book that I really want to talk about is your section on highly sensitive people. I think this is something that doesn't get talked enough about, and the research behind what you were talking about was finally, I want to just shove this part into people's faces and be like this is not woo-woo. Highly sensitive people is a real thing. So can I just get you guys to talk me through just some of that stuff in your book a little bit? What's your favorite parts of that? What would you really want someone to understand?

Speaker 2:

I think it's really important to always hold in mind that there's so much variation in temperament. We think of temperament with kids sometimes, although I think Westernized societies maybe still aren't so great at always thinking about children's temperament and factoring that into parenting or understanding kids' behavior. But we are all so different and you know, we're more familiar perhaps with extroversion and introversion. But there is another dimension of temperament which is sensitivity, and we are all sensitive more or less. So this is a dimension of everyone's temperament. Some of us are higher on sensitivity and some of us are less sensitive. And people who are highly sensitive feel things more strongly, are more impacted by the world around them, tend to think about things more deeply and that may make them prone to worry.

Speaker 2:

People will often label that overthinking, which we'll come to, because I think there's no standard.

Speaker 2:

It's just that people think more deeply than others, and there's also a tendency for overstimulation, because someone who is high on sensitivity is taking in so much more input from the environment.

Speaker 2:

So this has a huge bearing on relationships because it is the way someone is wired, it's the way someone experiences the world, and if you've got someone who is low on sensitivity and someone who is high on sensitivity, you're going to be reacting very differently to situations around you and, as you know Jessie mentioned earlier someone may not be bothered at all by something happening in the environment or in a relationship, and the other person if it's a couple, the other partner might be hugely impacted by that. And so if we don't understand temperament and how we're all wired really differently, it could be easy to just dismiss a highly sensitive person's experience and say, oh, you're too sensitive or you're overreacting or you're overthinking. But it's actually a very valid way of being in the world and, as you said, this is based in science. There's a whole lot of human research, and non-human animal research as well, that shows this is an aspect of temperament that is present in over 100 different species of animals.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow, that's amazing. I wish I could remember the exact percentage, but I feel like I remember something about 30%, is it? 30% of us are highly sensitive. Is that what that was? Yeah, wow, that blew my mind when I realized that and I love how you're talking about, how you're not too much, you're not too sensitive, and you're saying those words and I could feel it in my body and I was like, oh no, each one's like a little like trigger, like hitting me, cause that was my whole life. I'm such a sensitive person and, as I'm hearing you talk, I also think the other person isn't insensitive just because they don't have the same big reaction as you do. You know something's happening and you know a lot of us know right now, right, the world is, it's a little bit complicated right now. It's a lot. If someone else isn't as affected as you are, they're not insensitive and you're not too sensitive. We both just have different temperaments. What a beautiful, beautiful thing. Would you like to speak on this as well, jessie?

Speaker 3:

I'll just add that being sensitive, as Rachel said, doesn't have a value judgment and it really depends on the environment that we happen to be in. So for a highly sensitive person in a supportive environment, whether that means you have really nurturing parents or you have a secure relationship with your romantic partner or you're in an awesome workplace where you get great support, you're more likely to thrive over and above less sensitive peers. But similarly, if you're a highly sensitive person in a negative environment, whether that means you're exposed to childhood abuse or neglect or you're in a school environment, maybe that just feels overstimulating and like it's too much. Or if you've experienced some sort of adversity as an adult or you're reading the news even, you're more likely to be impacted for the worse. So it really does depend on the context that you're in, and our temperament means that we're sensitive for better and for worse. That's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Let me ask you guys this I'm just thinking off the cuff Did you find any links between hypersensitivity, or highly sensitive people, and attachment wounds or attachment styles in that regards?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there is a framework called differential susceptibility, which is you know, big term, but it basically means that we are impacted differently by our environment, and sensitivity is a marker of this heightened susceptibility.

Speaker 2:

And so what the research shows is that, for children who are highly sensitive, they are more strongly impacted by parenting, for better and for worse. And so, as Jessie said, there is also this bright side to sensitivity, where it's not just that being sensitive means you're more vulnerable to stress and difficulty. You're also much more able to take in, support and nurture. So what the research shows is that children who are in difficult environments, who are more sensitive, are more likely to be impacted and go on to develop things like anxiety and depression and we might look at attachment wounds as being part of that and also are much more likely to function well and optimally, even above and beyond what someone less sensitive can function at, if they have those beautiful supportive, nurturing childhood experiences. So there is that interplay with attachment wounds, in that highly sensitive children are much more vulnerable and susceptible to the impact of parenting.

Speaker 1:

I'm hearing you say that if we can give our children, or even ourselves, an environment that allows for our sensitivity, we can actually really thrive and grow from that. Is that right? Yeah, wow, do you have anything to share on this as well, jessie?

Speaker 3:

Well, just on the hopeful side because I think it's okay to share. Both Rachel and I identify as highly sensitive too.

Speaker 3:

Sames girls sames. If you're listening to this and have a little oh shit moment, I just want you to know you're not alone. And one of the really hopeful things about high sensitivity is actually, if you can get good quality intervention and support, you're more likely to get more bang for your buck. So, in other words, if you place a highly sensitive child in an intervention that supports the parent, they're much more likely to develop a secure attachment than a less sensitive kid, because now you've altered the environment and they're more sensitive to that change. So you actually see greater impact of that intervention for the better. And I think similarly for highly sensitive adults. If you're able to get the kind of support you need, whether that's through therapy or coaching or having an awesome group of friends, you're more likely to benefit from those positive relationships too. So if you're hearing this and feeling like I'm a highly sensitive person, what do I do with this? Just surround yourself with the best possible environment. I think would be step one.

Speaker 1:

I love that, because that was going to be. One of my next questions was how can we really support a highly sensitive person or ourselves when this kind of over stimulation or over sensitivity starts showing up in our relationships? Any ideas? I?

Speaker 2:

think there is things you can do to prevent overstimulation and overwhelm.

Speaker 2:

So anticipating what is going to be hard for you or for a partner is really useful. So I'll talk a lot about that in the clinic with parents, with couples, with individuals, that if you know that certain social situations or relationship experiences are going to be a lot for you, then you might think about how you can best take care of yourself in advance of that, but then also how you're going to care for yourself after. So I have clients I work with who will schedule breaks or schedule downtime in their social calendar so that you know when they know that there's family events where maybe there's tricky dynamics, that then maybe they have a day off after that. If they're going to be spending time with a friend that maybe they love, but it's a big thing and it takes a lot of spoons or a lot of emotional energy, then maybe it's taking care of yourself after that or maybe it's capping how much time you spend with certain people. So I think it's just really thinking about the impact of certain situations and then planning for that, both before and after.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for sharing that, because I'm thinking about a situation in my own life. In fact, these podcasts when I do these interviews, they take a lot out of me. In the beginning of this work, like a year and a half ago when I started this, I would just schedule clients and coaching calls and group coaching and then a podcast and then going with my kid to somewhere. If I couldn't handle it all, I would think I failed. I would think I can't cut it, and what I started learning was I need to kind of schedule in. Like I didn't really have much to do before this and I'm not going to have any. I'm going to go on my couch after this and go like binge watch, catch up on some reality TV or something, and that's how I'm scheduling myself in now and I don't negotiate on that anymore. So it used to be.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I don't have anything in my calendar, but I love what you said and so I really want to make sure my listeners are hearing that this is our time. Like this is. If somebody says, hey, are you busy? And you're busy, is you know, binge watching big brother with a packet of crisps, I don't care. Like that's your time and stick with it. Is that kind of what I'm hearing you say?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. And then there's a lot of techniques and supports and ideas in the book as well around self-regulation. So if you do experience stress or you feel like you've been triggered by a situation, then there's also things that you can learn to do to help regulate, and that will be so individual for each person. So we've included a lot of ideas in the book, but we really recommend people experiment with what works. So, for me, deep tissue massage is one of the things that is just the best reset for me and really helps me settle after you know it's been really busy or there's been stressful things happening.

Speaker 2:

For other people it's yoga, or it might be breathing techniques or getting out in nature, which I know is something Jesse and I both love doing. But when we do reach overstimulation or you are emotionally impacted by something, then it's about knowing what really works for you to help settle your nervous system and implementing that and, rather than seeing it as a weakness or something you need to push through, it's really about honoring that and caring for your nervous system and your body and your mind in whatever ways work for you as an individual.

Speaker 1:

It's such a good point because if we're sensitive and we're bringing so much in, it's almost like our filter is just a little like I don't know the way I'm picturing it right now is almost like our filter has bigger holes or something, so like we get so much coming at us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that must be worth it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it's like it's coming at you so much, so it's okay to take more breaks than other people. Other people could kind of like, go along, it's over here in the tech world. So I live in the Bay area, right, so we call this work fast, break shit, right. So you just go, go, go, go go, and then you just break things and you take a break, and there's some people that just do steady work forever, and then there's some people that go, go, go, go go, and then they have to break and then go, go, go, and either way it is, there's no right or wrong. That's right. So, yeah, how about you, jessie? Do you have any personal experiences or stories around this for yourself that you do? Oh, yeah plenty.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I think one way to think about it is everybody has their kind of optimal level of stimulation and we have some control although not complete control about dialing that up and down with the environments that we choose.

Speaker 3:

So I know for myself, especially as a college student back in the day this is now a few years ago my social life was such that I really had to be picky about how I wanted to engage with people, because I knew that the big, loud party thing was over-simulating for my nervous system and that was kind of the default for hanging out with certain friends was oh, do you want to go to this big party?

Speaker 3:

And I knew that that was going to be exhausting and sometimes I would push myself to go just to get out of my comfort zone. But if I really wanted to get to know somebody and if I wanted to feel most myself and most at ease, I would invite the person to coffee or to lunch or something where we could have a less stimulating environment and I could talk one-on-one and really be centered and grounded in the highly sensitive person that I am. So that's just one example of curating a social environment that really works for you and where you can have authentic connection as a sensitive person. But everybody's a little different. So we interview a young man named Jaden in the book who, when he's overstimulated in a similar type of environment, could often be a difficult person. And it's not until he sort of recognizes this about himself that he's able to kind of choose the social situations he most wants to be in so that he can show up as his best possible self.

Speaker 1:

I love that. What I hear so much in what both of you are talking about is so much proactivity, just so much getting to know yourself being okay with showing up for that. And I know that comes with having a bit more of a secure attachment stance. I understand that that's hard when we're when we are anxiously attached and we're so preoccupied with everyone else's opinions about us, it's hard to say no, I don't want to go to a loud club, come have coffee with me. But you can kind of see this pendulation between the two things of kind of needing to heal your attachment slightly, and then that kind of allows you to have more self-compassion for your highly sensitive self or any way in which you are, whether it be this is what you need or what you don't want. I love that so much. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I want to kind of switch gears just slightly, because I want to know a little bit more about the different worlds that you both come from.

Speaker 1:

I know that one of you is a researcher. I believe that's you, jesse, correct? Yes, okay, yes, that's right, because that's my jam right now and I was like I want to know all the stuff you do. And then, rachel, you have a clinical practice. Is that correct? So what was it like for the both of you, blending your perspectives together, to write this Like did you find you know? Like, oh no, jesse thought Rachel was difficult, or Rachel's not, just like, how do you even handle that together?

Speaker 3:

as you're writing, you're like no, I want this story in the book. No, I want that story in the book. Just tell me a little bit about it. Well, I'll start and just say it was so much fun. At least for me it was very fun. I don't want to speak on Rachel's behalf, but before we were co-authors we were friends first and I think that's an important foundation Having a good relationship before you embark on something like having a book baby together.

Speaker 1:

It's so personal a book so I'm like, yeah, it must be so, it's like co-parenting, but for your book, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

It really is, and I think one of the benefits of working on a collaboration with Rachel is we really did bring different perspectives, but we're both really grounded in the same basic lens on the world.

Speaker 3:

So I think we both filter our experience through the lens of attachment and bring it to the work that we do, even though the work we do is different. So from my point of view as a researcher, I'm really interested in what the science shows about what predicts secure attachment. How can we change attachment styles over time so that, even as an adult, if you're grappling with anxious attachment or disorganized attachment, that you can slowly shift toward a more secure pattern? So what does the science actually say about the best techniques to do that? But when it comes to implementing it in practice, that's where I really defer to Rachel, because it's one thing for me to understand this in theory and have read a bunch of papers about it, but what Rachel is bringing is more the practical tools to then work with somebody to implement it in the real world. So that was my experience was that it was a really nice complementarity, but that we kind of started with a foundation of both friendship and seeing the world through this really helpful lens.

Speaker 1:

That's so, so great. And did you guys write it from like opposite ends of the world, like Resistal was just kind of done online. Oh, that's just so exciting, like don't you just love technology? And especially like look at the three of us being able to talk. This is great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's wonderful in that way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and how about yourself, rachel? What did you feel like being able to co-write this book, like being able to have your clinical practice? Like you said, you have the practical way over here. So what did you bring to the book and how did you feel Jessie brought to it?

Speaker 2:

I think, as Jessie said, she's got her finger on the pulse with current research and has been involved in doing some of the amazing attachment research and then as clinicians we are translating that science into something that's accessible for you know, a lay person who doesn't have a science background to understand. So there's an education component to therapy and then also, when you're are using attachment-based interventions, you're using that science clinically in the way that you're offering therapy to clients and families. So Jesse had the science and the research and really knows the field. So if there was new research or if there was a particular study that supported something that we were talking about in the book, then Jessie would likely know what that was and could bring that. So I felt very lucky that we were working together and then I was able to talk to what that translates like in the therapy room what the interventions do for people, how people respond, stories of people's transformations when they have been engaged in attachment-focused therapy, and just people's stories, which I think we both bring to the book. We've got our own personal stories.

Speaker 2:

Jessie works with students in her teaching role, so you know she's you know hearing a lot of stories from students and interviewees in research and then as a clinician over years. You know you have hundreds and thousands of stories from different people. So I think it complemented our experience, complemented each other to write the book. We've got sort of the science end and then the therapy, the practical end and bringing that together and, as Jessie said, we were friends first. So the actual process of writing the book for me was just seamless. It really was. You know, often people have asked you know, did you have to work through some of the things?

Speaker 3:

that you wrote about.

Speaker 2:

You know difficult interactions, and I wish we had some juicy stories to share, but actually we don't.

Speaker 1:

Dang it. You're too secure. This is no fun anymore.

Speaker 3:

Actually the time zone thing worked really well for us, because I I would work on a draft during my normal hours and then send it to rachel when I was about to go to sleep, and she would then pick it up and do a bunch with it while I was sleeping.

Speaker 3:

So even that was like you would think being on the opposite side of the world would be difficult. I think it's really only been that way in the sense that we can't celebrate in person together, but the actual writing was actually really fun. To then pass the baton and feel like I can't work on this anymore Rachel's going to take a fresh look at it while she's nice and awake and I can just go to sleep.

Speaker 1:

That part just made me yearn for that. So I'm currently writing my book right now and I'm working with Lucky Book Publishing and it feels kind of alone sometimes. It feels that lonely, that feeling of I'm trying to write it and I was like somebody just tell me if I'm on the right track. So I love that you have that kind of co-collaborative space between the two of you to be able to write a book together. I want to pull back the curtains a little bit. What was that like? Were you guys just chatting on Zoom or Skype? One day or something, you're like we should write a book? Yeah, we totally should. And then you're like, why don't we?

Speaker 1:

How long ago was this. When did you guys decide to write this amazing book?

Speaker 2:

Well, when we met in Minnesota, which was 2018, as Jessie mentioned earlier, we were there for training in the strange situation protocol, which, for anyone who hasn't heard you will know about that, jen, I'm sure is looking at the attachment between infants and parents, and so you can observe the way that infants are interacting with their parents and assess whether their attachment is likely to be secure or insecure, and so we were there learning how to interpret the videos from the strange situation, how to classify attachments.

Speaker 2:

so it was 10 intensive days of training wow and so we talked about all kinds of things during the 10 days. You know our own attachment experiences, the countries that we came from, our interest, meditation, and so we really connected and liked one another right away, and so we stayed in touch when I came back to Australia and Jessie went back to where she was from, and then we just continued to talk about all the things that we were interested in. And I had this idea that I would like to write a parenting book, and so I asked Jessie if she would be interested in writing that with me, and so we started putting our ideas together over time and then we started writing for Psychology Today. So we did some blog posts on attachment and all the things that we were both really passionate about. And then I at some point got an email from a publisher in Australia who asked if I would consider writing a book, if I had considered writing a book for them, and I said, well, actually, yes, I have been, you know thinking of writing a book.

Speaker 2:

And so they were really wanting it to be general, not just parents but adults, and so a lot of the ideas that we had been writing about and had thought to put in a parenting book, we then put into a book that was for anyone adults and that's where Beyond Difficult was born.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for sharing that. I love knowing the inside workings of how things work, and what I think is really cool about this book is because it's a book about attachment styles as well right, A book about what is it like to attach in a relationship, and it's a very unique thing. I've read almost every attachment book I can get my hands on out there, and this really cool, unique part is that the two of you are working together to do this and so you kind of see this bond forming and happening and it just brings a level to this book that I don't think is like, unlike any other attachment book out there which is a lot of just like fluff or do this or just date a secure man that'll heal you. You know stupid shit like that and you know shade totally thrown, I admit it and so like this is what I love, so I just I highly recommend anyone out there right now listening and you're like, okay, what?

Speaker 1:

kind of book could I get? Is it science? Yeah, but like it's also practical and that's what's really great about it. So if you listen to my show and you like really love this the way I dig into science and the way I dig into research and how I'm not just looking at things from kind of this psych pop, college-y kind of thing over here and I'm really looking at like no, this is what this shows.

Speaker 1:

Like you cannot heal your attachment style in 90 days. I don't care what a course online tells you, it takes one to four years research. Like that is what this book is. So if you want to dive into it a little bit more, like if you really want to dive into your attachment style, if you want to understand highly sensitive people more, if you want to understand that you are not broken, that it is not your fault, that you are allowed to take up space and be whoever you are, then I highly, highly recommend this book. So, as we're wrapping up today, ladies, I want to just kind of get really practical. As the listeners have come along on this journey with us, what is something right now that they could try today that could help them with a difficult person?

Speaker 3:

I think my number one would be to work on emotion regulation within yourself.

Speaker 3:

That's the first thing that's within your control and regardless of your attachment history, you probably know what is effective for you in helping calm down from a strong emotion.

Speaker 3:

So if the difficult person in your life is bringing up a lot of intense anger, you might experiment first with deep breathing. I know for me that's my go-to when I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed with rage and also staying grounded in your body. So if you notice yourself kind of spinning out into a lot of thoughts and rumination, coming back to the breath and coming back to feeling your feet on the ground is a first step, at least for me. And oftentimes before I'm able to fully engage with somebody who's making me crazy, I need to take a walk around the block. So physical movement has actually been shown to help with depression, anxiety in the moment, emotion regulation, dissociation, all sorts of great things. In fact, there was a recent meta-analysis about exercise for depression that showed that dance was by far the most effective, which I just think is fascinating and so interesting. So dance it out if that's for you. But I would say, experiment with a flexible repertoire of strategies that can help you regulate emotion.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's beautiful. Can I hear you say that one more time? Sorry, that was just so good. A flexible repertoire of different ideas Is that what I heard you say?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, just try out different strategies, because it could be that the one you pull on in a moment, in a particular moment, is not working for you. So then, to be able to flexibly shift into some other strategy. Okay, I still feel so angry at this person. Let me go take a walk and now come back with some fresh perspective. I think having a couple of things in your back pocket to try when you're dealing with a difficult person is helpful.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for that. All right, so we have emotional regulation being flexible within your regulation. Have all these ideas and nothing's wrong if one doesn't work Sometimes we just need to mix it up. Sometimes and you heard her say it dance it out. You guys all know I say this all the time. I love it, but could I just like geek out with you on research after this, jessie, because this is like I love when you just pull this out.

Speaker 2:

This is great, always, always Jen.

Speaker 1:

This is amazing. All right, rachel, how about you? Just one kind of practical tip to handle difficult people.

Speaker 2:

So I come back to that idea that behavior is communication and, I think, often coming back to basics, because that often falls away when we're triggered or we're stressed or we're stuck in conflict with someone. People will often escalate in their efforts to be heard if they're not feeling heard, and so difficult behavior tends to escalate when the person that we perceive as difficult doesn't feel heard. So I would come back to this idea of deep listening, heard. So I would come back to this idea of deep listening. Slowing everything down and giving your undivided, full attention to the other person in the moment is likely to bring down intense emotion. It's likely to prevent escalation. If it's a child, it can help with the meltdown or the tantrum. So it sounds simple, but it's hard to hold on to when we're stressed and a lot of problems can be dealt with later.

Speaker 2:

You know there's this question is this an emergency? You know, do you need to solve this with your partner right now? Do you need to teach your child a skill of anger management right now? No, you don't it's, you know. Unless it's an emergency, then you've got time.

Speaker 2:

So slowing it down, really listening, and with that, you know, really classic counselling strategy is saying back to the other person what you've heard them say, and that could be as simple as I get it, you're pissed with me. Or you know, yeah, I cut the banana if it's a toddler. You know I cut the banana and you pissed with me. Or you know, yeah, I cut the banana if it's a toddler. You know I cut the banana and you didn't want to cut you know whatever. And you can say you know, is that right? Is that? Is that what's bothered you? And allow the other person the opportunity to correct you. You know, no, it's not that, it's this. And keep going until the person feels hurt. Often that really settles things. So that's just a great place to come back to when things are escalating.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. So we have emotional regulation, deep listening. Both of those have kind of this overall just slow down If we feel ourself kind of getting fast and kinetic. Just come back to your breath, listen intently, and that's where it's at All. Right. Such a beautiful conversation. Now where can my listeners find your book right now and connect with your work? Let's start with Jesse. Jesse, share any social media that you have, as well as where the book can be found, sure.

Speaker 3:

So the book is on bookshelves in Australia and New Zealand, but if you're in the States, like I am, you can order a paperback copy through Readings R-E-A-D-I-N-G-S Readings Books. It's also available on ebook for Kindle on Amazon and it should be coming out on audiobook any day now through Audible.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's exciting. That's so great. And how can people follow you if they want to know more? Jessie, are you online anywhere doing research as well?

Speaker 3:

I am, so you're welcome to follow me at Dr Jessie Stern on Instagram or Jess A Stern on X Twitter. I still call it Twitter. Same Rachel is usually more up to date on these things than I am.

Speaker 1:

Oh, perfect, I will pivot over to Rachel. Rachel, where can we follow?

Speaker 2:

you learn more. What is it that you're sharing? Go ahead. So I am on Instagram at Australian Psychologist and there's a website at rachelsamsonco.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, All right, everyone. I really highly recommend going and get that book. I will have all of the links in the show notes as well, just for you to go ahead and click on and, as well, if you have more questions about what's going on, come join us in our free Facebook community. You go to Speak Honest. You can just search for it on Facebook. It's got two little orange hearts so it stands out.

Speaker 1:

And just keep asking questions like hey, Jen, you know, Jesse said this thing here Like tell me more about it. I'll be like, okay, yeah, let's like look into the research and see where this is coming from. Or hey, I want some help with how can I actually get to a place where I'm deep like the Charlie Brown teacher because I'm pissed off so much. And that just comes with practice, that just comes with compassion, and sometimes it comes with working with someone like a coach or a counselor or a therapist or a psychologist, and it's about finding the person that works for you. Well, I just want to say thank you so much, Rachel and Jesse, for coming on the show today. Is there anything else you would like to say before we wrap up just now?

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having us. It's been a great conversation, and it's always so nice for Jessie and I to see each other face to face as well, so it's lovely.

Speaker 1:

That's okay. I'm so glad I could bring this reunion together. I would love to have you guys come back on again just to like shoot some shit and just like talk about things. Maybe we find out some more information out there and like what could we be doing? Maybe you guys are gonna write a second book.

Speaker 3:

Come and tell me about it you forget how hard the first baby was, so you want to do it again.

Speaker 1:

That's what they say. I'm currently in the pregnant stage of my book. Oh, I can share it with you guys see what you think as well. That'd be good, but oh, we'd love that and, as jesse said, dance it out. Y'all like this is what it's all about.

Speaker 2:

You just yeah, that movement, it brings it in.

Speaker 1:

So thank you all so much. Have a beautiful evening and I will speak with you all next week. Take care, as we wrap up today's conversation, always remember that healing is a journey, not a destination, and it is an honor to be a part of your healing journey. If you want to dig deeper into the topics we cover today, be sure to head over to our show notes, where you can find all of the valuable information mentioned in today's episode right there. And please remember to rate, review and subscribe if you enjoyed today's podcast. Your feedback means the world to us and helps others discover our podcast. Until next time, remember to speak up and speak honest.

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