50. Tell Me What You Want, What You Really, Really Want | Coaching Call with Steph

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Do you know what you really want, or are you stuck in a cycle of doing what you think you should? In this episode of Speak Honest, I coach Steph, who feels overwhelmed by her need to be productive and struggles to identify what she truly needs, wants, and desires. Together, we explore how to shift from “should” to “want,” break free from societal expectations, and reconnect with the joy of choosing for yourself.

You might want to listen if:

• You have trouble figuring out what you really want.
• You feel like your life revolves around productivity instead of fulfillment.
• You struggle with guilt or second-guessing your desires.
• You feel disconnected from your needs and how to meet them.
• You’re ready to explore what lights you up and start living for you.

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DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health professionals for specific concerns. Client opinions do not reflect Speak Honest’s stance. We aim for accuracy but are not liable for errors or outcomes fr...

Transcript

Jenn Noble

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Speak Honest. On today's podcast, I will be doing a coaching call with Steph. And Steph came to me with trying to figure out what is going on with her addiction to to-do lists. And so if this is something that you've also struggled with, just that need to be consistently productive and to do, do, do, do, do all the time, then this is going to be an amazing podcast for you to listen to.

And if you are sitting there and you're listening to Steph and you're thinking, I would love to jump on the podcast, Jenn. I think this could really help me. have a very specific situation as well. And it's just, I need some help. I need some guidance around what to do with this. Can you help me? And the answer is always yes. I love helping women like you figure stuff out. So go ahead and reach out to me. You can find the link in the show notes or you can just email me, jennifer@speak-honest.com and say, Hey, I want to be on your podcast, Jenn. This would be a really great opportunity. That's what Steph did. She listened to the podcast. She saw the link and she was able to be like, okay, I'm just going to go ahead and schedule with Jenn right now. She did bam. And we got her some help that she needed. That could be you right now. And so if you have gotten any sort of help or aha moments, or you've just really been able to get so much out of the coaching calls with the other women I'm having.

This is your opportunity to give back to the community as well. And it's a win, win, win, win, win. That's what I love about these coaching calls. It helps you because you get free coaching. Being on the podcast is completely free. I just always want to make sure that that is well noted, that it is my gift to you because you're giving back to the community and I'm giving back to you. And thank you so much for doing that. And then it helps the other women that are listening, because sometimes it can really help us to hear what someone else is going through and that ability to observe someone else actually allows us to better fully integrate the information that we're hearing versus when it's just us, you know, when it's us having the issue, we're too close to it. 

Even myself, I need to be able to talk things out with other people. I need to be able to have my own therapist, my own coach to be able to figure my own shit out. And that's what this is about. It's about being able to listen to someone else. Hell, sometimes when I listen back to the podcasts, I get stuff from the clients that I have coached and I'm listening to them and I'm thinking, yeah, I went through something like that recently too. What was it that I let her know? maybe I could integrate that into my own life and see how that works. And that's why I love doing these. But if that sounds like you go ahead and find the link in the show notes and schedule in a podcast coaching call with me. I would love to chat with you, but until then let's get on with the episode.

Jenn Noble 

Hi there, Steph. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. How can I help?

Steph

Thank you so much for having me, Jenn. I wanted some help with what I basically see as an addiction to to-do lists. All lists in general, but in particular to-do lists. I don't use, I don't like to use the word addiction lightly, but to me it kind of behaves like an addiction and that's how I understand it. For example, when my thoughts are spiraling or my mind is racing, then it makes me feel better. It kind of calms me down. And I feel like I'm almost non-functional sometimes when I don't have one. Like for example, if I have a free evening where I don't have anything planned and I don't have a list, then I end up just kind of pacing around the house or I start something and I don't finish it and I jump to something else so I kind of bounce from one thing to another or I end up in a three hour YouTube hole. 

Jenn Noble

The best holes to be in but yea.

Steph

Exactly, while I'm in them but then afterwards I just feel terrible, my mind feels terrible, my body feels terrible and when I don't have a list telling me what to do next, like when I haven't thought through beforehand what I'm going to do I feel like I don't know what I want, I don't know what I need and I can't make decisions in the moment. And I've always been like this, but over time my lists have gotten longer and longer. It's almost like I need more of a, more of the, more of it to get the hit kind of and so I sometimes end up with to-do lists that are like 50 or 60 items long and really unreasonable expectations. So for example, I'll think to myself, okay, I can relax when I've got everything done on my to-do list. But then on my to-do list, there'll be something like, finish thesis. And I'm like six months out from finishing my thesis. So completely unreasonable, or like sometimes I have these illogical thoughts in my head. Like, okay, I just need to make one to-do list for everything that I have to do for the rest of my life. And then I'll be set. Even things like “take shower” every day for the rest of my life. And so it just gets really unreasonable. 

Jenn Noble 

So let me ask you a couple of questions. So first, let me make sure I'm hearing you correctly. Beautiful. So I'm hearing you have an addiction and you don't use that word lightly. So it's not just like you're just throwing it around. You're like feeling that addiction to to-do lists. And my understanding of an addiction is something that we seek out and we seek out and we seek out to the detriment of our lives. Does that sound right to you in terms of what this is doing? 

Steph 

Yes, so when I start to feel like my mind is racing, then it's almost like my hands are kind of shaking, trying not to write one, and it also affects all of my relationships. Like I have a really hard time relaxing, I have a hard time spending time with people because I feel like I need to be productive all the time.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, I mean, that is such, especially in women, that is such a thing. We're just taught that it's like productive, productive, productive is the right way to be. And if you're not, what are we? Like for me, there's words like lazy, useless, in the way. Are any of those resonating with you when I say them?

Steph

Yes, definitely. And I think that a lot of this stems from the fact that I was so debilitatingly shy as a child and had so much social anxiety, but I was good at school. And so the way that I got praise and worth and got myself noticed was to be good at school. And so I think that turned into being good at being competent and being good at getting stuff done. And when I was a child and still actually a lot of people tell me that I'm really organized. And so that became kind of a key part of my identity that I'm organized. And so I always want to be living up to that. And that makes me think of more illogical thoughts that I have, which is that if something happens, like I get a flat tire or something goes wrong, then I say to myself, If only I had been more organized in the past, that wouldn't have happened. So also this element of control. 

Jenn Noble 

So there's a blame. Yeah. So if you're, if you had had a better list, if you had been able to do that, or if you hadn't run over the thing because you had planned it out better than this wouldn't have happened. yeah, there does sound, there's a little bit of an external kind of need for that control there, which is oftentimes, yeah, just a trauma response. When I, so when I say that out to you, when I say something like the need for control is just an outdated coping mechanism for our bodies to feel like we're in control. Does that make sense when I say that?

Steph

Yes, it makes a lot of sense and I can't point to any particular trauma that I've had in my life. The only thing I, but I do when I read or listen to resources for PTSD or trauma recovery, then it all makes sense to me, like it all resonates.

Jenn Noble

Yeah. So there's two types of trauma in the world. And there's big T trauma, right? There's the big abuse ones that we all know about, and we're like, were you verbally, mentally, emotionally, sexually abused, physically abused? Right? We have those. We know those. Did someone in your house, did they go to jail? Was there alcohol use or addiction or drug use? Right? We have all that. And then we have small t-trauma. And where a lot of the small t-trauma is actually coming from and stemming from are societal expectations on us. So if we do not meet with how society expects us to be, then our bodies and our brains, they start to rewire themselves in a way to try to mask, right, or force itself into becoming what they need us to be because why? We're safe. Right? I was, if, you know, if I was just prettier, you know, like Sarah was in school, I would have been safer. The boys would have liked me and maybe I would have gotten better grades. Or if I was faster, like Teresa on my volleyball team, I would have been better and praised as much as she was. Right? Do see where this is coming from? It's just a way in which our bodies are wiring itself to say, I need to do that. It's that survival of the fittest. Makes sense why it's happening and also it's just an outdated coping mechanism now. 

So I talk about this in terms of like a big winter coat. I get this from Gabor Mate, but you are in the winter, you know, and you need, it's like negative 20 degrees out and you're gonna put on a big winter coat. You're gonna have your hat on. You're gonna put your mittens on. It's gonna keep you safe, isn't it? It's gonna keep you alive. It's gonna keep you warm. But what happens when now it becomes summertime and you're still wearing that coat? What do you think will happen?

Steph 

It doesn't feel good anymore, it doesn't work anymore, it doesn't fit.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, and what might it do? Like it might cause you to have a heat stroke, right? It means your life isn't as good as it could be anymore. It means that you're being held back from what you could be having as this beautiful summer adventure, and instead you're holding onto the winter coat. So in childhood, when we are not conforming to what society thinks we should be doing and saying and being and all this stuff, our neurons are firing and wiring together to create in us this coping mechanism. And for you, it was beautiful. You were organized. You had your lists. 

Steph 

It got a lot of positive re- it gets a lot of positive reinforcement because it works. It makes me good at my job and good at school.

Jenn Noble

Hell I’m looking at it thinking like how can you teach me how to do a to-do list you know that's not helping that's like completely just giving into what it is you're already saying is the problem but do see how I'm already like I'm reinforcing that. Do you see how it's reinforced in your life over and over again but at what cost like you said what is it doing to you now.

Steph 

Yeah, and what you were saying about trying to, I think you said something about trying to conform to the world, the world was looking for that helped me make a connection because I had such strong social anxiety as a child that I always thought, and I always thought that that was wrong with me and like I had to fix it. And so when I was in my early 20s, I spent about five years of that being my main project was to try to get over my shyness and learn how to connect with people. And I did. I know how to connect with people now and I have a lot of friends and good relationships and I can hold a conversation with a stranger. But I feel like I'm faking it all the time. And I've read a lot about masking because that's what it feels like. And I almost feel like I tried to... I'm wondering when you said that about the coat, I started wondering if I tried to make myself fit into this role that I always thought would help me, which it has helped me a lot, but it still doesn't quite fit because I feel like I'm faking my personality.

Jenn Noble

Right. It's almost like, well, yeah, it's almost like, OK, great. So you took off the winter coat, but then you stuck on like, know, like a string bikini because you thought that that's what was going to be good. And you're like, I'm not comfortable in this either, though. Yes, it's better for summer. But are you comfortable? that's when I hear you talking, what I I felt my heart kind of like reach out to you slightly because I heard you say like, oh, you know, I needed to get over this shyness or I needed to be able to be this in order for people to and in order to for people to come towards me.

And it's that right there that I wish I could just like shake society and be like, why are we forcing other people to change who they are in order to love them? Like you are beautiful exactly the way that you are. Your personality is yours. And it's, it's maybe it's softer, you know, maybe it's quieter. And I heard you say earlier, you know, talking about how like, oh, it was just, I was always really quiet in preschool and people would often tell me, need, I need to speak up or I need to be more this or I need to be this.

What do think that's constantly teaching you? That you're not enough. That there's something wrong with you? When in fact there's absolutely nothing wrong with you. What if they could just sit with you? What, like if you could go back in time, If you could be that little five-year-old girl in that preschool, maybe four, like four or five, you tell me which age. And then what does she need in that moment?

Steph

The first thing that came to mind was therapy, but I don't think that's what you're getting at.

Jenn Noble 

You know what? Fair. And then what would she have gotten out of therapy?

Steph

I think she would have gotten some of the same messaging, trying to get her to open up more. And I heard a lot that I needed to come out of my shell. That was a very common refrain.

Jenn Noble

I'm forget- just forgive me for a moment as I gag. I just like, you know what? Stay in your fucking shell, okay? Enough with the shells! Your shell is gorgeous!

Steph

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, a lot of people used to ask me why I was shy. They would ask me why I wasn't talking and that used to drive me crazy. But I'm very, I'm very internal. Like a lot is going on in my head, but it doesn't naturally come out. So that used to make me really mad. I...

Jenn Noble 

Let me ask you about that though, if that's okay if I interrupt you because I really feel like we're hitting on something here. It's something really, powerful and important, which is you have all this beautiful stuff going on in your mind. But when were you told you had to share that? Like why?

Steph

In school a lot because school is about being in a group of people and meeting other people.

Jenn Noble

Okay, let me stop down right there. School is about being in a group with other people and meeting other people. Who says? Who made that choice? Like who made that decision?

Steph

I don't know, I just, I've always had this sense that you're supposed to be an extrovert. And I know, like I know logically that's not right. But it's still, it's still in me that I'll be more successful. And I really, so my mom is one of the most social people I know and one of the kindest friends that I know. And she knows so many people, she'll talk to everybody. And so I've always held her up as the example of how to be a loving person and how to be a good friend. And I always wanted to be, well, no, okay, so when I was a kid, I really wanted to be like my dad who kind of comes across as this very stoic, patient person who never gets mad.

And therefore I always tried to never get mad, like I really pushed down my anger because I thought that that's what I wanted to be. And then now that I'm adult and I'm working on being more social, then I really want to be like my mom. But it doesn't, it just doesn't come naturally to me the way that it does to her. And so I don't really know how else to be.

Jenn Noble 

Yeah, you know, I love this so much as I'm hearing you talk on a practical level, I'm making little notes because what I'm hearing you say is like, what do you want to be? You know, that's what's most important, no matter what. Like, why is it that we're doing this? You know, why is it that you're talking to me? Why is it that you even want to better yourself? Because, and I heard these, like you want to be a loving person. You want to be a good friend. And you thought with your dad, you he was able to control his anger and stuff is because he was patient. And so if he was patient, was he a good person? Was he loving? Was it just more of the same? Is there any other words coming to your mind?

Steph 

I always... the word that I always had in my head as a kid was independent. I always thought that was the thing to strive for and so I tried to be really independent but I didn't exactly have a definition of it. What I thought... to be independent, right, what I thought it meant was that you just don't show your emotions at all.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, yeah. And the beautiful part about your dad, which it's an interesting thing of our parents, and he might not have had any anger, but not because he was pushing it down, but because somewhere in his life, he had learned how to process his emotions in a mature and healthy way. So he was able to express them away from you. And so when he was near you, he was able to look like he was all put together. Right? And that's a beautiful thing. In fact, if that's a very secure thing, if he's doing it, you know, in a healthy way, I have no idea. I don't know your dad. Like maybe he's pushing it down. I don't know. But we see that in other people. And unfortunately, sometimes that can have the opposite reaction in us. So when we have, and this is such a beautiful thing because so many people are like, I had beautiful childhoods. And it's like, great. I'm not here to try to like tell you like, you know, your parents are like traumatizing you. What it is though is attunement. And what this means is sometimes when our parents are so perfect, or when our parents have showed up in this way and we can't live up to that, it starts making us feel a little less than when what we really needed was maybe parents to be a little bit more infallible. And that's not on them. They didn't know that. We can't go back and change that, but that doesn't negate that maybe you needed that and you needed more people in your life to show you that it's safe to be imperfect. And I even say imperfect. You know what? Can I take that back? Would that be okay? Because I'm just like the imperfect thing feels like there's still a way in which we need to be living. When in fact what it is is like just you exactly how you are. Your quiet, beautiful self. It's magnetic. You know, and what if you were taught that this quietness in you is your superpower. What if you were taught that all these things going on in your mind, those are beautiful and you can share them if you want or you can keep them all inside of you, however you want to be. And that makes you a loving person. It makes you a good friend and it makes you independent.

Steph

That brings up another thought, which is that I looked so much to my mom and dad to try to think about who I wanted to be and that makes me think that, that makes me remember that I have a really hard time knowing what I want and making decisions. And I don't know where that comes from, but I've always been like that, and... or at least I think I've always been like that, but... yeah, I have two siblings, two younger siblings.

Jenn Noble

Do you have any siblings? 

Steph

yeah, I have two siblings, two younger siblings.

Jenn Noble

Okay, okay. Do they also, do know if they like also struggle with anything like this or is it unique for just you?

Steph

In terms of the lists, that's just me.

Jenn Noble

Okay. But in terms of like wanting to like be more or feeling like you need and feeling like you can't think of what you need and what you want.

Steph

Hmm.

Jenn Noble

Do they seem decisive and assertive or do they also seem like a little bit like, I don't know what's going on kind of thing?

Steph

Hmm, my brother seems to know what he wants. I'm not really sure about my sister.

Jenn Noble

Okay. I'm just asking because I was trying to think of like, is this something that kind of runs in the family in terms of, you know, perhaps your parents were just all, they're so good that they were constantly there for all of your needs that they didn't actually allow you guys to fall, to fail, to figure out on your own what it is that you need. Sometimes that can happen.

And so we grow up and we grow up and we're like, my God, our parents were just, they were so on it. They were so good. They were constantly there for what I needed. but it actually meant that I don't know what I need anymore. And all of sudden we have to now grow up. Does that make sense when I say that?

Steph

Yeah, I wonder if something that was happening when I was a kid was that I, because I was so quiet and shy, then people had to speak for me sometimes. And I, my mom was either worked part time or was home with us. And so that was her role a lot was, I mean, her role was to take care of me and get my needs met. And so I… And also in conjunction with that, I had a hard time expressing my needs in the first place. And so I think I just learned that a lot later. So now when I think about what I want, like sometimes when I think about what I want, I can't even come up with something, especially if it's a specific decision.

Jenn Noble

That… Yeah, no, because remember earlier I asked you what did that little girl need?

Steph

Mm-hmm.

Jenn Noble

And you know, we made a joke and then actually we veered off the question. I don't know if you noticed that or not, but that's usually a pretty good indication that we don't know, right?

Steph

Yeah, and when I was a child, I thought, I don't know where this came from, but I didn't know that I had agency over anything. And so I didn't know that I could, I asked for small things like, can I have a piece of candy? But I remember, I have this memory of, because when at my school, we started playing instruments in fourth grade, we could pick an instrument.

Jenn Noble

Good! I like that!

But I remember, I have this memory of, because when at my school, we started playing instruments in fourth grade, we could pick an instrument. And so I picked the clarinet and I started playing the clarinet and the next year some people in my class didn't play instruments. And I couldn't figure out how they didn't play instruments. I couldn't fathom. I remember thinking like, did they say no? They didn't want to? Is that something you can do? And so I have a few memories like that where I didn't even consider it as an option to say no or say what I wanted. Another example is in middle school my sister went on this really cool field trip with her class and it was something I really wanted to do and it didn't even occur to me to ask if I could do a summer camp or something. I just never realized I could ask for what I wanted when I was a kid. I didn't even really think about it.

Jenn Noble

Yeah. And how about now as an adult, how is that showing up for you? Are you asking for what you want now or is it still kind of a scary thing?

Steph

I'm, well I'm 35 and I feel like I'm just learning how to do that. And it's a long process and it's really hard.

Jenn Noble

Mm-hmm. Yeah. To be clear, there's many of us out there. I'm only just now 40, so like, I also started learning that like five years ago. So like, you're in good company. But yeah.

Steph

Yeah, so I feel like advocating for yourself has two main steps. There's the advocating for yourself step, and there's the step before, which is knowing what you want to advocate for yourself. And I find both of those steps really hard.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, we actually go over this a lot in my program and because it takes scaffolding to get there. And what I mean by that is to say it's exactly that people are like, just, you know, just say what you want. But how do you know what you want? And that's where we talk a lot about things called personality needs or I don't know if you've ever heard of like Maslow's hierarchy needs. It's kind of based on that, but also a little bit on Tony Robbins ideas of our six main personality needs and all of this stuff. And it really gets us clear on what do you want? And that's what I keep hearing again and again here is like, okay, we can take off the big winter coat, right? We can do all of that. We can take off the mittens. We can take off the hat. But what do you want to put on? And if we don't know what that is yet, then we can't move forward. And I'm wondering if this is where to-do lists are coming in for you.

Steph

I was just thinking about that. 

Jenn Noble

And I'm so, I'm wondering if there is a way in which you potentially are kind of like grasping onto the to-do lists as telling you, hey, this is what you want because this is what you should be doing. And maybe what we can do is, is kind of flip the script slightly and get you to start looking into each item on the to-do list and asking, well, why do you want this? Like really digging into each and every one. It's going to be it'll be exhausting at first, trust me. But if you wanna do it, we could try something like this. So for example, if something pops up on your mind, a to-do list item, what is it? Like what's the next thing you're gonna do after this podcast?

Steph

Uh.. clean the kitchen and make dinner.

Jenn Noble 

Okay, why? Why are you gonna clean the kitchen?

Steph 

because I enjoy my house more when it's clean.

Jenn Noble

Okay, and why do you enjoy your house more when it's clean?

Steph

because it feels like I'm taking care of the space around me, which is by extension taking care of myself.

Jenn Noble

And is there any other way in which you could take care of yourself?

Steph

Yes, I could make dinner first and then clean the kitchen.

Jenn Noble

Okay, I like that. And then clean the kitchen. And is there another way that you could take care of yourself where you don't clean the kitchen?

Steph 

I mean, there are many ways I could take care of myself. I think the clean kitchen, the unclean kitchen would always would keep bothering me.

Jenn Noble 

And per, this is so good. I love this one so much by the way, because this is like an easy one. It's just a kitchen. Go clean the kitchen. It's not a big deal. But right, you know where this is going. It's about other stuff. It's when it becomes something bigger or something deeper. And so my question to you is why would that bother you to have a dirty kitchen?

Steph 

Partly because it's just harder to then make dinner because I need to wash it before I use it, but partly because I want everything in my house to be perfect.

Jenn Noble

Ahhh okay. So you said that and then you even gave like a little giggle. Tell me what's going on in your mind.

Steph

I'm trying to think of why I want my house to be perfect. I don't know if that's because, I don't know if that's for me or if someone else's surprise comes over and sees my house.

Jenn Noble

Yeah. And it's so interesting because the act of cleaning your kitchen, you know, it's not about that. And I'll talk about this often, but people will often come to me and ask, Jenn, you I want to do this. I want to text him or, you know, I want to make this gift or, you know, I want to start this job. You know, is that the right thing to do? And there is no like right or wrong, right? The action we take is not secure nor insecure. It's the intention behind it.

And so what I want us to get clear on with you as we're doing this and as you move forward from this podcast is to really get clear, what is your intention behind the tasks that you're putting on your list? And so with each item that you add to your lists, you just want to check in with yourself. Cause the to-do list in and of itself, Steph, is not a problem. I think we know that, right? It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. To-do lists are great. But it's just like anything that we have in our life, right? Like food is great, but we can become addicted to it.

Exercising is great. We can also become addicted to it. Can't we? And so what we want to do is just utilize who you are. You're a list maker. Great. Unless you're not a list maker, then stop making the list, but it sounds like you're a list maker and I'm here for it. I love it. And what we can do is just check in with yourself and ask yourself with each item you put on the list, what will this bring you?

What is your intention to having that? And is it gonna bring you joy or is it something you're doing because you're trying to resist or prevent a negative feeling? Like I wanna clean my kitchen because if I don't, then I'm a slob.

Steph 

So you're.. I’m having a couple of thoughts as you're saying that.

They're coming out of my head. So I have a lot of interests. There are a lot of things I like to do. And so most of the things I put on my list are things that I want to do. But I think that there also some of them are things that I think that I should do. And I think that sometimes I do know what I want in the moment, but I make the list ahead of time because I almost use it as a way to override what I will want in the moment because I worry that if, because I worry that I, what I will want when I get home from work and have to make dinner and clean the litter box is to sit down and read a novel, instead of doing what I, in quotes, should do, which is clean the kitchen and make dinner and prepare my lunch for the next day. And so I think that I already kind of have a weak sense of what I want, and then I completely squash it out by telling myself ahead of time what I need to be doing instead.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, and it's that right there that's gonna keep us stuck in this cycle of guilt and shame and shoulds, right? Like, if you have a list and you just call them your should list, right? Like it's honestly at that point in time, it's just your shit list. don't like look at it and just really ask yourself, like, do I want to do this or not? 

And it's funny, because I can work with other people and I'd be working the other direction, right? The other direction is all I do all day, Jenn  when I get home is I go and I read a novel and I don't do anything and I really need to get myself sorted. Can you please help me? Great, we'll do that. Because there is no right or wrong way to be. But something is holding you back from the life that you truly could be living, right? From that fulfilled, satisfied life that makes you you, that makes you get excited to wake up in the morning, that makes you get excited to live your life, that makes you get excited to go hang out with your friends or have a new partner or hang out with your cats or whatever that is. It's that joy that like lights us up and we want to find that again. And so for you, we want to just kind of shift things slightly. We like to do one or two kind of new things a week to try to make that happen. But what if for your to-do list, you check in with them, right? We're talking about that again. You said you're like, okay, I like you said, I love when you said, I already know what I want to do. I just don't think I should be. What if in January, you did what you wanted to do? What would happen?

Steph

It sounds really scary. I currently don't have a list. I'm trying it out for a little while to see how it is. And I kind of go into what feel like relapses where I go back and make a list again.

Jenn Noble (30:36.128)

Mm-hmm, I love it. Good. I like scary.

Steph

I currently don't have a list. I'm trying it out for a little while to see how it is. And I kind of go into what feel like relapses where I go back and make a list again.

Jenn Noble

That's good. Relapses are part of healing addiction, by the way. I just want to be very clear that in my work in addiction trauma and things like that, not saying trauma, but that's just where it comes from. I just want to be clear, relapses are actually incredibly healthy. So if you are making lists again, I just want you to know that's a good thing. It's just a sign of your body trying out new stuff, but keep going. So you're having the relapses, you're making the list again.

Steph 

There was something I was gonna say but I forgot. I think I'm, I mean I've worked a lot on this in the past year and I think I'm moving towards getting better and I could go for a little while without it. Sometimes I make lists and then I rip them up a while later.

Jenn Noble

When you're ripping the list up, what's happening in your body when you're doing that?

Steph

I am... It feels like a relief but also like I'm falling at the same time.

Jenn Noble

I want us to be careful with the actions that we're taking because I want our body on a somatic level to be in tune and in touch with what you actually want. So there's even a part of me that as you're talking, I'm hearing like, I stopped making lists or I'm ripping them up and I just still want to ask, but is that what you want, Steph? Or is that what you think you need to be doing in order to stop yourself from making lists? Do get what I'm saying?

Steph

Yeah, and I'm definitely a very extreme person. I go to try to move away from one thing, I go completely to the other side. I don't feel like I do very well with moderation.

Jenn Noble

That. Yeah, and that need of having that black or white, that all or nothing, the lack of moderation, that's just going to keep us swinging in this state where we won't be able to find our happiness. We won't be able to find that satisfaction level because we're constantly trying to swing between finding them. People who listen to me a lot will know that's a very disorganized attachment kind of way of living of this like all or nothing, which is, you know, I want this, I want this, I want this. And then as soon as you get it, I don't want it at all. And you push it away. It's this push pull dynamic that we live in with our love lives, our family, our items, our everything. I remember I used to move all the time because I could never just be happy in one place. Because I would do everything, I would get it all set up. And then as soon as I got it all set up, I was like, well, I don't want this anymore. And I'd have to, right? Because I need that new novelty, I need that dopamine hit, I need that sense of accomplishment. So what I want to encourage as we wrap up here today is living in that moderation, but only if it's what you want. I just want to be clear here because nothing I say is right or wrong either, right? I'm just here. I'm just your vessel for you to process your own thoughts out. But what I'm constantly hearing is even in trying to heal yourself, we're not checking in first with Steph. Like, what does Steph want to do after this podcast?

Steph

She wants to go read a novel.

Jenn Noble

Great. Okay. So, and if I say to you, great, go read that novel, what comes up for you?

Steph

the thought, then I'll be hungry.

Jenn Noble

Okay, so then what happens when you get hungry? Then what are you gonna do?

Steph

then I'll go make dinner.

Jenn Noble

Okay. So would it be possible to go read the book first and then make dinner later?

Steph

I think I could do that.

Jenn Noble

Yeah. And because my question there, right, because there's other things, right? We're just getting to know each other, right? If we're working together, we dive into deeper things. Other people are like, no, I can't do that, Jenn, because, you know, I have a very strict diet, so I have to make sure I plan first. And so I have to do that. OK, great. Well, it sounds like what you want then is a healthy lifestyle. So go make your food. But see how every choice is actually what you want, not just what you think you should be doing. Just for you, two words, if you change anything in your mindset.

Two words for you is do I want this or do I think I should be doing this?

Steph

Yeah, and one I remembered what I was thinking about before, which is that a lot of times I have realized that everything on my to-do list is things that I think I should do. So then I try to kind of hack the system and I put things that I actually want to do on my to-do list, like read for half an hour. But then everything feels like a chore. And so then I feel like I've lost kind of all excitement for things that I enjoy doing because now I feel like everything I do has have a purpose.

Jenn Noble=

Yes, I love that you see that about yourself. That in and of itself shows how much work you've done because the fact that we've already gone through that, like curiosity means that we get to then move forward and see, okay, it didn't work. I love a good hack. You know, I have ADHD. I very, very highly inattentive ADHD. And I have this hack where I constantly have three things going on on my schedule at all times to make sure that I get something else done.

And this was a beautiful hack that worked for me. It does not work for everyone with ADHD, trust me. And it works well for me. So you tried a hack and it didn't work. So we're just gonna keep trying these hacks because remember there's no such thing as failure. Everything is just an experiment. And really, really getting back into figuring out who you are, what you want, and what makes you happy. And maybe for the first time in your life, you're gonna figure that out. Because like you said, you didn't have much agency.

Maybe you hated playing the clarinet. And you really wanted that damn trumpet and nobody gave you the trumpet. You know, they're going to go out and buy you a trumpet then and you're going to play that trumpet or whatever it is that that looks like.

Steph

That's funny, I actually have a trumpet that I want to learn how to play.

Jenn Noble

No way! I had no idea when I said that. That is amazing. Well, listen, I played the trumpet, so I'm biased. That's all it is. Clarinets are crap. Are you kidding me? I've lost all my clarinet listenership. That's what just happened. You know what? I said there's no right or wrong. I take it back. Clarinets are wrong. I'm putting it down. That's exactly. I'm planting my flag on just that.

Steph

Yeah, now I'm gonna get defensive. Don't hate on clarinets!

Jenn Noble

You know what? I said there's no right or wrong. I take it back. Clarinets are wrong. I'm putting it down. That's exactly. I'm planting my flag on just that.

Steph

The one thing that's wrong.

Jenn Noble

Who needs a read ina thing? Anyways, I love this for you so, so much. Tell me a little bit about what you're gonna do moving forward from this conversation. Any aha moments or what's that next step you wanna be taking?

Steph

Well, I really like what you just said about how I tried to hack and it didn't work. So it's not necessarily that I can't do that, or that I can't do what I'm trying to do. It's just that that particular thing didn't work. I like what you just walked me through, which is what do I want to do after this? And then what are the thoughts that come up? I'm gonna be hungry and then well, what am I gonna do about that? I think that's a framework that I could take to try to kind of get myself through step by step when I don't have a list and I'm not sure what to do next. What do I want to do and how will that make me feel? And if I feel that way, then what do I want

Jenn Noble

Yeah, just moment to moment you're going to get off this podcast and I just want you to check in. Sometimes I put a hand on my heart and you just check in with yourself and you say, okay, what do I want next? I want to go read a book. Okay, great. Go. So go read the book. Oh, well, I'm also really hungry. Okay, great. So your choice, your agency, which is going to be so beautiful for little Steph to feel, is your agency as you get to decide like, okay, well, I'm going to choose to make dinner now, but then I'm going to read my book while I eat or something right now. You've just made that choice all your own and it's your agency.

And you're like, you know what? I'm going to be hungry. You know what? I want this for you, Steph. just one day I just want you to just like go to bed hungry and like have a dirty, just dirty ass kitchen. And you just spend like five hours reading your book. And I just need you to indulge. You know what I mean? Like just to see what it feels like. And then you're going to try it. And then you're to be like, I didn't like that. Great. But it's like it's like you need to start like trying new things. We want to put new coats on. We want to try new coats on for you and just see what that feels like for you. How's that sound? Yeah, you know, imagine if you go to like a clothing shop and you've gone to the clothing shop and you think every single thing you try on has to fit you. that, right? I mean, in fact, I think some of us do think that which is what gets us stuck in our mindset about there's something wrong with us. But let's say that is a thought. But no, what's the point of going to try stuff on? You just want to see what fits, what works.

Steph

trying not being productive.

Jenn Noble

Yeah, you know, imagine if you go to like a clothing shop and you've gone to the clothing shop and you think every single thing you try on has to fit you. I mean, in fact, I think some of us do think that which is what gets us stuck in our mindset about there's something wrong with us. But let's say that is a thought. But no, what's the point of going to try stuff on? You just want to see what fits, what works. You had an old winter coat on. It was beautiful for what it was. Your parents did a beautiful, wonderful job with you. It's just, you don't need that anymore. And it's time for us to start figuring out what does Steph want? What does she actually want right now? 

What book does she want to read? What food does she want to eat? Does she want to indulge with an ice cream cone? Does she want to indulge with an extra cup of coffee after 4 p.m.? That's like my thing. I'm just projecting.

And so like all these things it's like, oh yeah, that feels good. And then this is gonna, I can't wait to talk to you and like, if it's like another year's time and you've gone completely off the rails and you're like, Jenn, my house is a disaster. haven't cleaned in a year and everything is fucked up. And I'm gonna be so happy for you. You'll be like, everything you told me to do is blown up in my face. And they'll be like, yay, cause we're now trying on new stuff and you're gonna find what works for you.

Steph

That hack didn't work.

Jenn Noble

I got kicked out of my apartment because I haven't cleaned in three months. I didn't say that, okay? I just don't see that being something that's going to happen because instead we have to go the radical direction with you instead, which is to just get you to figure out what that is. We'll go through those questions. If you ever need more, always reach out to me and I can help you figure out some of that stuff.

There's different programs and stuff I have as well that can help you with that. But there's also books out there that'll help you. You know, there's other coaches, there's other therapists, there's, there's other things, but it seems like we know that key thing is - what does Steph want? What does she want? And that's what we're going to figure out. All right. Is this a good place to wrap up today? Okay. Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate your vulnerability so, so much. And I will talk to you later.

Steph

Yes, thank you.

Jenn Noble

Okay. Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate your vulnerability so, so much. And I will talk to you later.

Steph 

Thank you so much and thank you so much for doing this podcast. I love it.

Jenn Noble 

Thank you. Bye.

Steph

Bye.

Jenn Noble 

I am just so, so happy that Steph was able to find this podcast and be able to jump on here and let us know so vulnerably what was going on with her. Because I think so often we hear so many people out there thinking, I need to do a to-do list. I need to do this. I need to do this. And then they're not doing it. And here's Steph struggling with actually doing it too much. And what I love about that is it really just showcases to us that there is no right or wrong way to live our lives.

Some of you out there might've been listening to Steph and being like, I wish I could do that. I wish I could be organized. I wish I could have a to-do list. But that thought process is actually what's reinforcing these beliefs in Steph, to be honest. It's this idea that making lists and doing everything right and cooking dinner and being organized is the right way to be. And that's what I just want to say is just total crap. There is no right way. I say it all the time, but there's no secure nor insecure action out there. It's what is our intention behind it and what is it costing us? How is it influencing our lives? Is it making our lives more fulfilled and satisfied and excited to wake up in the morning or is it bringing us down? Is it shaming us? Is it making us feel guilty? 

And that's what's really the most important thing here. And so as we wrap up today, I just want you to be mindful of what is it in your life that you're doing that's either holding you back or building you up. And just keep asking yourself, why am I doing this? Just take that away from today's podcast and I will speak to you all later. Take care.